In the PTO, what would be the lowest and highest rank of a B-29 pilot? What woud be the lowest and highest rank for a B-29 co-pilot? Would the co-pilot ever be of higher rank than the pilot?

Two weeks ago I lost a dear man in my life, Capt. Norm Moore, who was a B-24 & B-29 pilot in WW II. By the time he completed B-24 flight training the war in Europe was over and so he was re-trained as a B-29 co-pilot, had completed training and was awaiting orders to deploy to the Pacific when the war ended. He left the Army at the rank of lieutenant.

From Flight Officer (Warrant) up to Colonel and rated could fill the duty of Aircraft Commander and Pilot (what some call co-pilot).

Aircrew positions typically were dictated by ability, hours and duty performed rather than the stricter structure of rank. (although the old RHIP Rank Has Its Privileges, always gets a pass to the front).

Para, this may not be what you are looking for, but I can give you an answer based on my dad's information to me. He was B17 combat pilot. At the close of the bombing operations in Europe in April 1945, he was sent stateside to train as a B29 pilot. He never flew in combat as a B29 pilot because the war ended. Based on my impressions from him, the protocols would be the same for all 4 engine bombers.

Most pilots were 1st Lts, but some did fly as 2nd Lts. Dad qualified on the B17 as a 2nd Lt, but was promoted to 1st Lt. just prior to his deployment to England. Squadron leaders could be Captains, Majors, Lt. Cols or Cols. I guess general officers could still be pilots too, but that seems unlikely.

The pilot was the top dog on the plane, so a co-pilot would never outrank the pilot. If both co-pilot and pilot were 2nd Lts, then I think that seniority would rule, or the pilot would get a field promotion. The navigator and bombardier were also officers, but sometimes they were flight officers to keep the chain of command clear.



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As sigmonkey pointed out, technically the pilot could outrank a co-pilot if he had more time in that specific aircraft. A captain with 1000 flight hours in a B29 would likely be placed in the left seat over a Major who just transferred to B29s with only 50 hrs in that type. Those are just random numbers to make my point.
If you want to watch a great video about a B29 check out the Nova episode on the attempted rescue of the Kee Bird from Greenland by Darryl Greenameyer.


https://youtu.be/CE9j-W_8USw

There were also "Flying Sergeants" in the USAF who flew as pilot in command of all types of aircraft. Carroll Shelby was one of them.

Some flying sergeants became aces. I was on active duty when one of the last flying sergeants retired. So, it seems the USAF recognized skill and ability were more important than rank. Still true today. I have been on USAF aircraft where the aircraft commander is a Lt or Captain and the co-pilot is a Lt Col.

Thanks very much guys.

Would the path for a B-29 pilot have been OCS, then flight school, then straight to flying a B-29? Or would the path be different, including first serving in smaller aircraft?

Flight training always started with what were classified as PT or Primary Training aircraft. Typically these were Boeing PT-17 (Army Air Corps) or the Navy variant which the designator escapes my memory at the moment, but they were both the same Stearman-designed Boeing-manufactured aircraft. There was also a PT-22 Ryan, and if I'm not mistaken perhaps a few UPF-7 WACOs, although the WACO lost out in the contract bid to Boeing, and a smattering of other aircraft as well. Once a pilot completed Primary Training he was sent to AT or Advanced Training in aircraft such as the AT-6 Texan or the SNJ Navy variant. After completing Advanced Training the "pipeline" the pilots were ordered into determined what operational aircraft they would be sent to and thus either began their next phase of training in the single engine or multi-engine aircraft they would actually fly during their operational phase.

Two of the several very special men who had an impact on my life served in WW II. Captain Norm Moore (he went on to an airline and air show career and retired as a Captain), and Charlie Kulp who had finished civilian flight training, and attempted to join the Navy to serve as a fighter pilot but was instead trained as an aviation mechanic and was assigned to an air craft carrier and worked on F-6F Hell Cats. Both men were the same age and both joined the military at age 17. At the end of the war both men left the military and went on to very different but rewarding life long careers in civilian aviation and air shows.

Norm Moore was from Pennsylvania and soon after enlisting he was sent to Florida for "Basic" training. There was such a rush to get these recruits trained and ready that there were no barracks for them and so the Army put them up in local hotel or motel. According to stories from Norm the drill sgt. would have the recruits run up and down the stairs of the hotel repeatedly and then command them to assemble for roll call outside. Norm said he didn't like this phase much, but he wanted to serve and he wanted to be a pilot so he endured it.

After completing his basic training the Army Air Corps sent him back to PA, for the next phase of his training, which was held at a small women's college. I can't recall for certain but I believe that he called this portion of his training cadet training, which I think may have been some sort of accelerated officer training program.

During the initial part of his training in PA, the recruits were not allowed to have a car, but after reaching a certain point they could then have one. Before joining the Army Norm had recently bought a $300 convertible and it was parked at his home with his parents 60 miles away. Norm made his way home, brought his car back to the girl's college, and as he told the story, he quickly became popular with both the other cadets as well as several of the girls there.

Wanting to know more about both Charlie and Norm and their WW II service as well as their flying careers, a friend and I that flew with these men and were part of the same air show, sat down and interviewed them on video tape over 20 years ago. I never had a chance to review the tape and over the years had forgotten much of what we had asked, but my friend recently sent me a digitized copy of our interview with these men.

I loaned the DVD interview out but when I get it back I'll try to find the part where Norm described his training in more detail and if I learn something more I'll post it here.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Thanks very much guys.

Would the path for a B-29 pilot have been OCS, then flight school, then straight to flying a B-29? Or would the path be different, including first serving in smaller aircraft?

Unlike today, in WW2 an Army Air Corps officer commission was usually tied to successfully completing flight training - normally you were an aviation cadet until getting your wings, then you were also commissioned as an officer / 2LT or Warrant Officer. Reason being they didn't want you as an officer if you didn't fly. So officer / indoc training was combined to a degree with flight training. Obviously there were West Point grads and other commission officers that went to flight training after getting commissioned, but the large majority of pilots weren't commissioned until complete with flight training.

After flying a number of training planes and getting their wings, new pilots were then funneled to Bomber / Fighter / Cargo specific training.

quote:

loaned the DVD interview out but when I get it back I'll try to find the part where Norm described his training in more detail and if I learn something more I'll post it here.

Please, oh please get that DVD copied onto a file type that can be posted on YouTube or Vimeo!
That’s a very precious thing someone has borrowed!

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:

quote:

loaned the DVD interview out but when I get it back I'll try to find the part where Norm described his training in more detail and if I learn something more I'll post it here.

Please, oh please get that DVD copied onto a file type that can be posted on YouTube or Vimeo!
That’s a very precious thing someone has borrowed!

Unfortunately, due to the fact that the technology was fairly new, not to mention the fact that there was some beer drinking going on by all , the video is somewhat rough in places and the audio even worse. Not being professional interviewers we made several rookie mistakes, including conducting the interview outdoors while airplane engines, tractor engines, and cicadas chirping were going on around us, not to mention being buzzed by fellow pilots.

Knowing what I know now, I sooooo wish I could redo the interview today. Unfortunately it cost a thousand bucks to have the video recording partially adjusted to fix a few of the many errors and transfer it to DVD and so I currently have the only copy...

...We lost Norm just a couple weeks ago, but my friend Charlie is alive and relatively well, living with his 95 year old girlfriend, and Charlie himself will be turning 94 in just a couple weeks.

I was in the middle of putting together a proposal for a national broadcast outfit to interview both men, but even with Norm gone I'm hoping that they will still consider interviewing Charlie for their show.

I saved a few stills from our interview before loaning the DVD out. Both men were in their early 70s at the time of the interview.

Charlie Kulp on the Left and Capt. Norm Moore on the right

Here is a restored B-29 training film from WWII:



From my reading they were only accepting pilots who were qualified B-17 or B-24 pilots into B-29 training. Some had combat hours, but some went directly from B-17 or B-24 school to the B-29 training. However, during war there were always exceptions, but that was the standard.

The Fleet At Flood Tide by James Hornfischer has some really good content regarding some of the background/training on the B-29. Paul Tibbett's really developed and ran the training. Before reading this book I did not know any of his background - it is very interesting. The B-29 was a beast to fly, it's amazing what was accomplished in such a short timeframe, that bomber was so far advanced.

Interesting link regarding training the flight engineers for B-29's. They were the '3rd pilot' in the crew.
http://www.oregoncounsel.com/F...E/Superfortress.html

Little known tidbit of info I got firsthand from my dads buddy Matt Jackson (featured in the video I posted)- more B29s were lost on the ground due to engine fires than any other causes.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Thanks very much guys.

Would the path for a B-29 pilot have been OCS, then flight school, then straight to flying a B-29? Or would the path be different, including first serving in smaller aircraft?

Here is a good article on it:

INDIVIDUAL TRAINING OF FLYING PERSONNEL

Looks like there were several revisions of the training process going from almost a year to down to 9 weeks. There were also enlisted pilots but most of them were promoted to officer ranks once passing training and before being deployed.

All good stuff, thanks, guys. This is research for short story, in case anyone is wondering why I'm asking these questions.

I flew a version of the B24, but not the 29. We had a number of C-97's, which are a direct development of the B-29 (nee B-50). I worked on them quite a bit. The R-4360 was indeed prone to catching fire. A lot. 28 cylinders packed tightly in four rows in that cowling, with intakes and exhaust tubes running between them, made it inevitable. Great engine, but problematic.

The R4360 was the "replacement" to the R-3350, which powered the B29 initially. The 4360 was the development into the B-50 and tanker versions. The R-3350 had a long history of catching fire. They get hot, they suck valves, they lift heads, and with just 18 cylinders in two rows and three power recovery turbines (PRT's), are still prone to overheating and fire. Overheating lead to valve failure and to cylinder head failure; chiefly lifted cylinder head

The R-3350 was the most advanced radial ever put in production, but had a lot of failures. The B29 was known for engine failures. It was fast, sleek, sexy and long-range (and pressurized. Ultra modern at the time, but it was considered a platform that should have prior experience. WWII was marked with a very large pilot pipeline and a LOT of mishaps and deaths in training, and very, very inexperienced pilots across the board in fighters, transports, bombers, etc.

The B29 had a large cockpit, and every crewmember had their own throttles (unique to the B29 and subsequent family, through the C-97). It was complex electrically, hydraulically, fuel-wise, and added the complexity of pressurization. It required a higher degree of crew coordination and cooperation in an age when neither was part of the cockpit environment. The cockpit in those days was a dictatorship, which also contributed to the high mishap rate for air operations: the B29 placed a higher demand on the crew in coordinating with each other in not only flying the airplane, but simply running it's systems and components.

Aside from the issues with the engines, what might be a likely source of a fire aboard a B-29 in flight, during a combat mission, assuming that the fire was caused by external forces? What effect might antiarcraft fire, or enemy gunfire have on a B-29, which might cripple but not down the aircraft?

That may be a question with no answer.

Here's an amazing story of a fire aboard a B-29. Crew were supposed to manually drop phosphorus smoke bombs thru a chute in the floor when they reached their assembly area. It exploded prematurely. Here's the rest of the story:

https://www.warhistoryonline.c...nto-the-cockpit.html

Henry Eugene “Red” Erwin, Sr., (May 8, 1921 – January 16, 2002) was a United States Army Air Forces airman and a recipient of the U.S. military’s highest decoration—the Medal of Honor—for his actions in World War II. He earned the award as a staff sergeant and radio operator aboard a B-29 Superfortress in the Asia-Pacific theater. During a 1945 bombing mission over Koriyama, Japan, a phosphorus bomb prematurely exploded in his aircraft and seriously wounded him. As smoke filled the plane, he picked up the burning device and carried it through the aircraft to the cockpit where he tossed it out a window. Although he suffered severe burns, he successfully saved his plane by disposing of the smoke-generating bomb.
Military service
Born on May 8, 1921, in Adamsville, Alabama, Erwin joined the Army Reserve from nearby Bessemer on July 27, 1942. Called to active duty as an aviation cadet in the Army Air Forces on February 3, 1943, he trained as a pilot in Ocala, Florida, but washed out due to “flying deficiency”. He was instead transferred to technical school at Keesler Air Force Base, Mississippi, as a private first class in July of that year. He completed further radio operator and radio mechanic training in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and Madison, Wisconsin, until his graduation in 1944.

Assigned to the 52nd Bombardment Squadron, 29th Bombardment Group, 20th Air Force, in Dalhart, Texas, Erwin and his unit left for the Asia-Pacific theater in early 1945.From February 25 to April 1 of that year, they participated in a series of un-escorted bombing strikes against cities in the heart of Japan. For these missions, Erwin, by then a staff sergeant, received two Air Medals.



Medal of Honor action
On April 12, 1945, Erwin, called “Red” by his crewmates, was serving as the radio operator aboard a B-29 Superfortress named City of Los Angeles, piloted by Captain George Simeral. The plane was in formation for a low-level attack on a chemical plant at Koriyama, 120 miles (190 km) north of Tokyo, on their 11th combat mission. Along with their primary jobs, the twelve B-29 crew members had additional duties to perform. Erwin’s was to drop phosphorus smoke bombs through a chute in the aircraft’s floor when the lead plane reached a designated assembly area. He was given the signal to drop the bombs when the aircraft was just off the south coast of Japan and under attack by anti-aircraft fire and Japanese fighters.

Erwin pulled the pin and released a bomb into the chute, but the fuse malfunctioned and ignited the phosphorus prematurely, burning at 1,100 degrees. The canister flew back up the chute and into Erwin’s face, blinding him, searing off one ear and obliterating his nose. Smoke immediately filled the aircraft, making it impossible for the pilot to see his instrument panel.

The pilots could not see. The plane began a dive. It was certain that death would come, but would it be from the certain crash or the explosion from the munitions? Then the crew saw what had to have seemed to them an apparition as Irwin, totally aflame, located the burning phosphorus bomb and grabbed it with his right hand! Holding the white-hot canister against his rib cage, he somehow made his way towards a plane window by the navigator’s station. The navigator’s table blocked his progress and the seconds it took to raise it must have seemed like an eternity. Fellow crewmen remember Erwin saying: “Excuse me.” as he stumbled past them into the cockpit to throw the bomb out the window.

Erwin was afraid the bomb would burn through the metal floor into the bomb bay. Completely blind, he picked it up and feeling his way, crawled around the gun turret and headed for the copilot’s window. His face and arms were covered with ignited phosphorus and his path was blocked by the navigator’s folding table, hinged to the wall but down and locked. The navigator had left his table to make a sighting. Erwin couldn’t release the table’s latches with one hand, so he grabbed the white-hot bomb between his bare right arm and his ribcage. In the few seconds it took to raise the table, the phosphorus burned through his flesh to the bone. His body on fire, he stumbled into the cockpit, threw the bomb out the window and collapsed between the pilot’s seats.

The smoke cleared enough for Simeral to pull the B-29 out of a dive at 300 feet (91 m) above the water and turn toward Iwo Jima, where Erwin could be given emergency treatment. His crew members extinguished his burning clothes and administered first aid, but whenever Erwin’s burns were uncovered, phosphorus embedded in his skin would begin to smolder. Although in excruciating pain, he remained conscious throughout the flight and spoke only to inquire about the safety of the crew. Once at Iwo Jima, medical personnel didn’t believe he would survive.

Army Air Force officials, led by Major General Curtis LeMay and Brigadier General Lauris Norstad, approved Erwin’s award of the Medal of Honor in a matter of hours, so a presentation could be made while he still lived. A medal was flown from Hawaii to Guam and presented to him in the hospital there.

However, Erwin survived his burns. He was flown back to the United States, and after 30 months and 41 surgeries, his eyesight was restored and he regained use of one arm. He was given a disability discharge as a master sergeant in October 1947. In addition to the Medal of Honor and two Air Medals received earlier in 1945, he was also awarded the Purple Heart, the World War II Victory Medal, the American Campaign Medal, three Good Conduct Medals, the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with two bronze campaign stars (for participation in the Air Offensive Japan and Western Pacific campaigns), and the Distinguished Unit Citation Emblem.

Later life

Erwin in 1995 at a ceremony commemorating the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II
For 37 years, Erwin served as a benefits counselor at the veterans’ hospital in Birmingham, Alabama. In 1951, his story was included in the movie The Wild Blue Yonder; Erwin was portrayed by Dave Sharpe.

In 1997, the Air Force created the Henry E. Erwin Outstanding Enlisted Aircrew Member of the Year Award. It is presented annually to an airman, noncommissioned officer and senior noncommissioned officer in the flight engineering, loadmaster, air surveillance and related career fields. It is only the second Air Force award named for an enlisted person.

Erwin died at his home on January 16, 2002, and was buried at Elmwood Cemetery in Birmingham, Alabama. His son, Hank Erwin, became an Alabama state senator.

Medal of Honor citation
Erwin’s official Medal of Honor citation reads:

He was the radio operator of a B-29 airplane leading a group formation to attack Koriyama, Japan. He was charged with the additional duty of dropping phosphoresce smoke bombs to aid in assembling the group when the launching point was reached. Upon entering the assembly area, aircraft fire and enemy fighter opposition was encountered. Among the phosphoresce bombs launched by S/Sgt. Erwin, 1 proved faulty, exploding in the launching chute, and shot back into the interior of the aircraft, striking him in the face. The burning phosphoresce obliterated his nose and completely blinded him. Smoke filled the plane, obscuring the vision of the pilot. S/Sgt. Erwin realized that the aircraft and crew would be lost if the burning bomb remained in the plane. Without regard for his own safety, he picked it up and feeling his way, instinctively, crawled around the gun turret and headed for the copilot’s window. He found the navigator’s table obstructing his passage. Grasping the burning bomb between his forearm and body, he unleashed the spring lock and raised the table. Struggling through the narrow passage he stumbled forward into the smoke-filled pilot’s compartment. Groping with his burning hands, he located the window and threw the bomb out. Completely aflame, he fell back upon the floor. The smoke cleared, the pilot, at 300 feet, pulled the plane out of its dive. S/Sgt. Erwin’s gallantry and heroism above and beyond the call of duty saved the lives of his comrades.

Several things can result in a fire.

A dragging brake or excessive e taxi prior to takeoff leading to brake fire and the resultant burning of the wheel/tire assemblies.

Engine fuel, oil leaks, hydraulic leaks and electrical/equipment fires. (tube radios and such) and O2 bottles to add to oxidation and rapid fires.

Engine, gearboxes, pumps all can fail and result in source of ignition.

And fuel, oil/ hyd fluid ammo and munitions being struck by enemy aircraft fire, ground fire from AAA, all of those could (and did) cause crippling damage where stricken aircraft could be flown for considerable distances, and the efforts of aircrew to fight fire and or jettison items to help salvage a bad situation.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Thanks very much guys.

Would the path for a B-29 pilot have been OCS, then flight school, then straight to flying a B-29? Or would the path be different, including first serving in smaller aircraft?

Here's factual account from dad's flight training records and his own words:

They preferred pilots to be officers, so a degree was supposed to be required, but they were also known to put enlisted men through a 9 month college program if they were deemed pilot material. My dad was in the latter category. He went in as an enlisted member of the Army Air Corps. He first trained as a gunner on the B24 before being selected for the college program. Uncle Sam sent to him to college, along with other cadets, at Stevens Point Teacher's College in WI (now the U. of WI- Stevens Point). They went to school from 8am to 5pm every day of the week for the 9 months they were there. They were told they received 3 years of college in the 9 months.

After college, he was sent to Thunderbird II Airfield in Scottsdale AZ to begin flight training in the Stearman PT-17 open cockpit biplane. Based on his flight log, he put in about 65 hours on the Stearman.

From there, he was sent to Minter Field, CA and Marfa AAF in TX, where he was trained for an additional 270 hours total on the UC78B/AT17 Cessna, also known as the "Bamboo Bomber".

From Marfa, TX, he went to B17 training at Las Vegas Army Airfield. He qualified on the B17 in the fall of 1944. Upon completion of qualification, he was discharged as a Staff Sergeant and commissioned as a 2nd Lt. From there, he was sent to Lincoln, NE, where his bomb squadron was formed.

He was then sent to Dyersburg, TN for his final phase B17 training, putting in another 100 hours in the air with his crew. From Dyersburg, they were sent to England in the winter of 1945.

Once bombing runs ceased in Europe in April, he was sent stateside and ultimately to Randolph Field, TX for B29 training. He completed training there just prior to Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

Para, this is one story of a journey to the pilot seat of a B29, but maybe it has some facts you can use as background for your story. My dad's story wasn't unusual, as Modern Day Savage relayed.



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