I have been wrenching on cars and trucks for many years now. Shade tree mechanic stuff. No major engine/transmission builds, rear end redos or anything of the like.
I have used anti-seize on a number of things especially with aluminum threads but also suspension components and fasteners I know I will need off again as well as stuff that gets wet and caked with mud.

I have always just torqued to the factory or aftermarket torque suggestion if doing an upgrade.

Honestly never even heard of wet torque specs before.
But I was reading over some installs prepping for the last of my suspension parts to arrive and in one thread a guy mentioned using anti-seize and went on to state the factory torque spec.

Then some dude chimed in about wet torque specs and how he needed to go back and adjust the torque because of anti-seize?

Have I been missing something substantial for years now by not even knowing about wet torque specs??
I can’t ever recall ever hearing of such a thing.

Are you concerned about your bolts coming loose? I think, if anything, you made your bolts tighter. This is because anti-seize acts as a lubricant and reduces friction. When installing cylinder head bolts, for example, you always lubricate the threads with oil as well as the underside of the bolt head - and if it has a washer, the top of the washer - so as to get max torque out of them. This is especially important with torque-to-yield bolts, which are actually adjusted for the amount of stretch. Your suspension parts will be fine.

Not worried about them loosening as I have been reading up on it a little.
But I have been doing it for years to the dry torque specs I guess.
Never had an issue and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t really causing an issue with something like the suspension since I guess I am over torquing them.
Figured I am probably within a safe range. But everyone here is smarter than me so figured I would double check before I continue to use the suggested specs.

I’m probably wrong, but my understanding is anti-seize compound is made such that it doesn’t reduce or add friction and no torque adjustments are necessary. The instructions for the Permatex anti-seize I have sitting in my garage say to "Reassemble parts using normal torque values.”

I’m in oil and gas and we have many bolted connections and some of them are for a very high pressure applications. Like many young mechanical engineers, one of my first assignments was a torquing study. Wet torque specs are a deep rabbit hole as:

the actual lubricant has a large impact on torque. As you can imagine, there is a myriad of lubricants and on top of that products variants (e.g. brand name vs Chicom crap).

if there is a gasket involved then there are different gasket materials.

the bolt coating has an impact on friction which impacts torque.

the torquing technique has an impact especially when you get to very large studs/bolts. If you’re side loading (eg hydraulic torque wrenches) vs pure linear loading (eg hydraulic tensioners).

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Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

quote:

Like many young mechanical engineers, one of my first assignments was a torquing study. Wet torque specs are a deep rabbit hole as:

Sounds exceedingly familiar, except my "assignment" was on CFM-56 engines.

To the OP, don't sweat it, at all. Torque the bolt and carry on. You can really fall down the rabbit hole and drive yourself insane with this stuff. Unless you are driving the trophy truck circuit at triple digit speeds, wet vs dry torque specs won't make a lick of difference and there will never be an easy, straight answer to your question. The variables are eye-watering.

I'm no expert, but, I agree with the others. Have always used anti-seize on my lug bolts and also between the metal wheel and the disc rotor.

When it comes time to swap wheels, change a flat, my old parents neighbors advice to "lube it" makes me smile.

Don't do much to-the-spec torquing, but am curious - wet vs. dry, how much difference do the theorists suggest it makes?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I’m probably wrong, but my understanding is anti-seize compound is made such that it doesn’t reduce or add friction and no torque adjustments are necessary. The instructions for the Permatex anti-seize I have sitting in my garage say to "Reassemble parts using normal torque values.”

Excellent answer.
Did not even think to look at the bottle.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Don't do much to-the-spec torquing, but am curious - wet vs. dry, how much difference do the theorists suggest it makes?

The difference could be as much as snapping or permanently deforming bolts/studs.

For example, there is a bad torque table going around oil and gas contractors right now. For Teflon coated bolts/studs, the torque table is actually saying that adding lubricant increases friction instead of decreasing friction. I had one project call me after using it and the net result was permanently deformed studs and had to replace all of them.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Don't do much to-the-spec torquing, but am curious - wet vs. dry, how much difference do the theorists suggest it makes?

The difference could be as much as snapping or permanently deforming bolts/studs.

For example, there is a bad torque table going around oil and gas contractors right now. For Teflon coated bolts/studs, the torque table is actually saying that adding lubricant increases friction instead of decreasing friction. I had one project call me after using it and the net result was permanently deformed studs and had to replace all of them.

I can believe that. "Doing it wrong" always has a penalty. "lube increases friction" One of my Mech E profs was a specialist in tribology...he'd be rolling in laughter (or crying?!?) at that torque table.

I had misphrased my question. I was/am curious as to how much additional torque/reduced torque may be called for. Meaning, numeric examples of wet=x inch pounds, dry =y.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Don't do much to-the-spec torquing, but am curious - wet vs. dry, how much difference do the theorists suggest it makes?

The difference could be as much as snapping or permanently deforming bolts/studs.

For example, there is a bad torque table going around oil and gas contractors right now. For Teflon coated bolts/studs, the torque table is actually saying that adding lubricant increases friction instead of decreasing friction. I had one project call me after using it and the net result was permanently deformed studs and had to replace all of them.

This, torque specs are for bolts so that there is a certain amount of stretch on the bolts. Too much torque will over stretch the bolts or break them or they will eventually break. So yes, if there's a torque value it should be followed. Generally wet torque is for 30 wt oil on the threads as different oils/etc. will have a different value. Torque values are drastically different between wet and dry torque (wet being less) by about 15-20% from what I've seen. Look on the bottle of the anti-seize though.

Permatex Anti-Seize White Sheet

Directions For Use, specifically Item 6, Reassemble parts using normal torque values.

But if you want to dive into the wabbit hole on lubricants and the effect on bolt torque values....

Wet Torque vs Dry Torque values

Ya'll need to take this discussion over to BITOG.
Those guys obsess over everything . This topic would put some of them on suicide watch .

I reduce torque by approx 15% when there's any kind of lubricant present such as anti-sieze, oil, Locktite, etc. Unless the torque value specifically mentions the lubricant. This was after stripping a final drive oil drain bolt in a 1976 BMW motorcycle. The owners manual listed something like 17 NM (13 ft lb) which my Snap-On torque wrench never reached because the steel drain bolt stripped the threads in the aluminum case. When later mentioning this to a BMW mechanic he laughed saying he sees this a lot saying his hunch is they must use dry assembly torque figures in manuals but with any oil on the threads (such as draining oil through) that number is too high. He advised for drain plugs going into aluminum to tighten by feel based on the size of the bolt, which I've been doing ever since. More recently I read on a forum where people were doing the same thing on Yamaha Tenere' 700 engine oil drain bolts, apparently Yamaha instructed it to be torqued to something like 28 ft lb which with oiled threads was way too high. I always use whatever torque value is spec'd on dry bolts such as lug nuts, brake caliper bolts, etc. When using antisieze on say exhaust clamp bolts or header studs I reduce by 15%, unless it says "apply antisieze then torque to..... ft lb". Same with LockTite.

quote:

But if you want to dive into the wabbit hole on lubricants and the effect on bolt torque values....

Wet Torque vs Dry Torque values

My 15% reduction is not enough with oil present, looks like it should be more like 30% reduction. No wonder people strip aluminum cases with drain plugs.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ridewv,

Most things on a street vehicle and overbuilt enough that there is a wide margin for error.
The bottom line, make it tight enough but not too tight.

I've always understood torqued fasteners should be clean and lightly lubed. So I brass-brush them, if necessary (e.g.: The primary bolts for my mower blades), apply a bit of motor oil, work it in and remove the excess with a shop rag or whatever, then fasten.

The only things upon which I've ever used anti-seize were fasteners with a history/reputation for being stubborn upon removal. E.g.: Wheel lug nuts. I still torque to spec.

Been following those procedures ever since my days of street racing on Woodward Avenue back in the late 60's and early 70's. They've yet to have failed me.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
I had misphrased my question. I was/am curious as to how much additional torque/reduced torque may be called for. Meaning, numeric examples of wet=x inch pounds, dry =y.

At work, I hardly ever see dry any more except on Teflon coated. There is actually a 10% to 20% difference in torque values between the competitors to the trade marked Teflon.

On the wet side:

never seize is one of the highest torques (ie doesn’t reduce friction much).

even 2 products with moly in the name can vary by 20% (eg liquid vs paste)

With all of that said, at home the only time I worry is like Ridewv’s example of a steel bolt being torqued into a threaded softer metal (eg aluminum).

---

Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

Not that it is the end all be all but I cannot ever remember seeing a wet torque value in any aircraft maintenance manuals that I've used. Most of the lube called out is the Bostik Never-Seez in our manuals.

I believe Tator and Jimmy are correct. I read that up to 70% or more of torque is used to overcome friction in some configurations. For auto and truck lug nuts and studs, I brush and clean, but do not lubricate. My understanding is that if you exceed the elastic limit of the bolt, you decrease the "spring back" elasticity, or clamping power, effectively ruining the system. In that situation, you could be in big trouble, depending on the application. Like vehicle wheels coming off driving down the highway. For high pressure industrial applications, I could imagine some horror shows. Personally I wouldn't use antiseize unless it was called for. I've done minor suspension work, but never used antiseize. I do know however, don't ever use antiseize on stud/nut threads on wheel lug nuts. But this is just from my personal experience not working on work trucks in rust zones etc.