Of course, should this idea gain currency, the definition of mental illness will expand to include non-PC beliefs, perhaps including the desire to own a gun.

I like Para's notion of equating docs who want to put you down with anyone who wishes to do you harm. Self-defense being an inherent right of all living beings.

I don't get why anyone would want to involve doctors or the government when you can punch your own ticket any time you please already.

It isn't like it's unproven concept.

Holy hell this sounds problematic!

Extending it to someone who can’t give informed consent is just not good. What about a child with a terminal illness? No way.

The left wants to red flag people that someone thinks MIGHT want to harm themselves, but thinks it’s a good idea to have a doctor do it. Crazy

I think that in some situations that the "doctor assisted euthanasia" is close to "suicide by cop" ways of ending ones life... But until we walk a mile in someone elses shoes who really knows what demons they are dealing with. ......... drill sgt.

Logan's Run

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
First, do no harm.

Depends on your definition of “harm”. Is alleviating someone’s suffering by painlessly ending their life doing harm or doing good?

Doing everything one can to end their pain while allowing their disease to take it's course is the best option. Intentionally ending their life is murder. This is not something a civilized society should condone.

quote:

Doing everything one can to end their pain while allowing their disease to take it's course is the best option. Intentionally ending their life is murder. This is not something a civilized society should condone.

As a physician, I agree. There may be rare individual exceptions, but it should never ever be official state policy.
Pain can be controlled. Sometimes that will lead to somewhat premature demise. That's not the same.

I've turned off pacemakers and AICD's (implanted defibrillators) for terminally ill patients on the threshold of death--IMO that's letting nature take its course.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A lot different. The Nazis favored wholesale euthanasia. Did you read the referenced story of the girl who had refractory PTSD? Again, I do not agree with euthanasia.

I am not buying it.

With recent developments in psychosis treatment, especially psychedelics, dying should not be a self-selected option, much less pushed by the so-called physicians or worse, the state.

The Hitlerian, Maoist, and Stalinist eugenics movements all, every last one, started by forcing death on one poor soul in “the name of mercy.” Thereby saying this life is trash, discard it. Watch A Judgment at Nuremberg and you might understand this point.

Over time that becomes the “final solution,” the Gulag, and the mass killing of the “Cambodian Killing Fields” or Maoist “Cultural Revolution” where hundreds of millions were murdered by the state in the name of clearing out the perceived dross of society. Millions upon millions, discarded like trash.

Execute a single criminal for a single crime of murder or rape, based on objective evidence (e.g., DNA), after meaningful due process, and opportunity for appeal is one thing - that criminal knew the possible penalty for their actions. Killing psychotic people who, in the quacks opinion are not able to understand or worse, they understand but are unable to object, what fate befalls them… I want NONE OF THAT SHIT!

It was my own period in a month-long coma that completely changed my mind. Under this construct, when would the quacks have killed me?

This is a ball that once accepted and rolling, would gain momentum and become a dangerous depopulation tool. No thank you.

quote:

With recent developments in psychosis treatment, especially psychedelics, dying should not be a self-selected option, much less pushed by the so-called physicians or worse, the state.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Care to elaborate on the recent developments? The whole ketamine thing is not an accepted method of treatment if that is what you are suggesting. Did you read about the girl with PTSD?
I think we have some paranoid thinking going on.

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Doing everything one can to end their pain while allowing their disease to take it's course is the best option. Intentionally ending their life is murder. This is not something a civilized society should condone.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
This s the logical conclusion from socialized medicine. Delay treatment which saves money in the short term. Or eliminate the patient which saves money in the long term.

Socialized medicine isn’t about treating people, it’s about getting as much money from them as possible and giving them the least amount of treatment or assistance. If you do it long enough, people will accept 3rd world quality of care and the government tells them it’s world class medicine.

Yes. Old people and sick people become a mere liability to the State under socialism. For the good of the collective, they must be eliminated.

Once you realize who would set policy and actually make the decisions , you come to realize that it's a bad idea .

What we see here is progressivism. It's baby steps into atrocity. Likely not a grand conspiracy, but it's human nature gradually moving to places reach throughout history. We find reasons to eliminate the inconvenient among us. In this case, it starts with compassion for the afflicted. Once the notion is accepted, another use for the policy is adopted. Then another and another. Each adoption of broader policy comes with a new more lenient standard until finally humanity is shamelessly eliminating the unwanted.

Progressivism is insidious evil. The only way to stop it is to understand it and stop it early.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

With recent developments in psychosis treatment, especially psychedelics, dying should not be a self-selected option, much less pushed by the so-called physicians or worse, the state.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Care to elaborate on the recent developments? The whole ketamine thing is not an accepted method of treatment if that is what you are suggesting. Did you read about the girl with PTSD?
I think we have some paranoid thinking going on.

I'll let Professor Huberman and colleagues speak first:





Now, listen to these podcasts and tell me you doubt the efficacy of these modalities:




This one you can start about an hour from the end.

And my A Judgment at Nuremberg reference boils down to this brief exchange, between Dr. Ernst Janning (Burt Lancaster), once Germany's preeminent judge and legal scholar and Judge Dan Haywood (Spencer Tracy) the American judge who sat on the tribunal that convicted him of Crimes Against Humanity:

quote:

Ernst Janning: Judge Haywood... the reason I asked you to come: Those people, those millions of people... I never knew it would come to that. You *must* believe it, *You must* believe it!

Judge Dan Haywood: Herr Janning, it "came to that" the *first time* you sentenced a man to death you *knew* to be innocent.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
How does a mentally ill person have the mental capacity to make that decision?

First thing that came to my mind.

That's the difference between a terminally ill or physically injured person and this proposal.

The truth is that if someone is suffering from mental illness but otherwise capable and mentally competent enough to make that sort of decision, they really don’t need anyone's direct intervention to make that happen.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 220-9er,

quote:

Originally posted by xd45man:
I heard from my older brother that my mother, who has passed on as well, gave him a lethal dose of his pain medicine.

Numerous folks have shared that they have been advised to bump the morphine drip up a bit and allow the patient to “drift off peacefully” when it gets near the end. Having watched my FIL go through dying of pancreatic cancer, I can see how that might be a kindness. At the same time, I am not sure I could wrap my head around doing that. I’ve put animals down and know it was the right thing at the time. I wouldn’t judge someone else for assisting in that way, it may well be the kindest thing to do. I’m just not sure I could do it and and know it was the right thing.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
[Yes. Old people and sick people become a mere liability to the State under socialism. For the good of the collective, they must be eliminated.

Different cultures handle things differently. Who can know the truth of it, but I recall reading years ago that when the elders in some nomadic tribes were no longer able to contribute and keep up with the tribe they were left with a blanket or two and a little food, knowing they would starve to death or be eaten by wild animals. We have the technological capacity to do a lot more to prolong the sunset phase of people’s lives than those tribes did. Just how far we should go with that is an open question.

quote:

I'll let Professor Huberman and colleagues speak first:

WOW. You are going whole hog on this one. The Prof is not exactly mainstream. Once it is accepted at Hazelton, the Cleveland Clinic and Mayo I might be interested. Psychedelics are no magic bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

I'll let Professor Huberman and colleagues speak first:

WOW. You are going whole hog on this one. The Prof is not exactly mainstream. Once it is accepted at Hazelton, the Cleveland Clinic and Mayo I might be interested. Psychedelics are no magic bullet.

I never said psychedelics are a magic bullet.

I said “With recent developments in psychosis treatment, especially psychedelics, dying should not be a self-selected option, much less pushed by the so-called physicians or worse, the state.”

As for Cleveland Clinic, they are still all COVID vaccines all the time as is Mayo.

So I’m not buying their objectivity or conclusions any longer.