quote:

Originally posted by papaac:

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
I guess I'm in a different situation?

I have my rifle plate carrier in the trunk and it's marked Police on front and back.
I'd call the local PD and advise them I'm going in and my description.

I have been to 4 or 5 Active Shooter Training programs. The police will tell you that the arriving officers will not get the word that you are a good guy.

This. I responded to an active shooter situation here in SLC at trolley square. In that shooting there was a plain clothed officer on scene who left his wife to act and engage the suspect. He advised her to call dispatch and give his description. I don't ever recall hearing about him when we were entering the building. Dispatch was flooded with callers/victims in shock and the info we were provided with was of course multiple shooters and multiple descriptions. I will admit the pucker factor entering that mall was high. Maybe I just didn't hear the info or maybe dispatch didn't put it out but either way I didn't get the message.

It should be noted that the off duty officer who was on scene was witnessed by arriving officers with his firearm in his hands trying to keep the bad guy contained to a single store. The officer moved several times as the big blue wave was coming ashore. The first arriving on duty officers reported they recognized the plain clothed officer as an officer by his weapon stance and movements so they assumed he was an officer or Mil trained guy.

On another note here is another note on this police response...

The first on-duty officer arrived at the mall doors. He eventually entered the building alone and engaged the shooter. When the on-duty officer was being interviewed by detectives, several days after the shooting, he broke down in tears during the interview.

He advised the detectives that even though he engaged the shooter he had stopped for nearly a minute outside the mall waiting for other officers to build a team as he had been trained. He believed he had failed the citizens who had been shot and killed because of his inaction.

The officer collected himself then detectives showed him the security tapes. The video showed the officer had paused outside the doors for just over a second before he entered the building alone and without waiting for an immediate action team to be formed. He had been thinking he waited for minutes and people died because of his inaction for several days. He was wrong.

You guys just keep saying the same thing, over and over.

I'm not going to stand around and listen to people being murdered. But, you go ahead and listen to the training mantra, and do nothing.

I'm with Para on the old age approach - I would rather die by friendly fire than die in a nursing home. If I KNEW going in that I would be killed, I would still swap this tired old body for saving the life of even one little elementary school kid.

I am pretty much safety-minded in my living style and risk-adverse. I don't sky-jump, mountain climb, deep-sea dive, motorcycle ride or pilot small planes. All of these are somewhat risky, but rewarding to those who pursue them. But in the given scenario, the need to protect the unprotected overrides any personal fear for my own safety.

"I am just a visitor to this world and never planned on staying forever."

Logically? No, from this vantage my answer would be that I would not help. I've got a little girl at home that I need to make it home to. Beyond that, the whole situation is bad: even if I don't end up ventilated by the bad guys, or even the good guys, I'm staring down a ruinous amount of legal fees from every angle. Everything from felony discharge of a weapon on school grounds, to lawsuits from the bad guy's estates, to lawsuits from children's parents. I might as well commit sepukko if I tag an innocent bystander.

Realistically? I interject to help way more than I should. Given the very specific prompt, that I'm literally just standing right there with my SOCOM 16 or my AR, spare mags on a chest rig and my med kit right there, who knows. Some things just gonna happen in the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Why is everyone so hyper focused on being shot by police and nobody is mentioning the possibility of being shot by the active shooter?

That doesn't even remotely enter into my decision-making process. Would I be cognizant of the possibilities? I would certainly hope so. But those possibilities would not be a deciding factor, or even slow me down, were I to feel I needed to act.

I'm seeing far more "oh, but I might get killed" in this thread than I thought I would.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I'm seeing far more "oh, but I might get killed" in this thread than I thought I would.

I'm a little surprised, too. I hadn't responded because as a person who does not carry it wouldn't apply to me. Perhaps a lot of the members who do carry and who would assist have also decided to remain silent about it.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I'm seeing far more "oh, but I might get killed" in this thread than I thought I would.

Because some of us have been through full scale active shooter drills with dozens of police on the scene and have seen how that would play out.

I was designated a disgruntled employee with a gun and these cops did not fuck around, their entire purpose is to stop the shooter and they are running past wounded people in order to get to that objective. Just add in a do-gooder with a gun and that COULD end very badly; they not know who is a friendly and who is the actual shooter in the chaos.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Logically? No, from this vantage my answer would be that I would not help. I've got a little girl at home that I need to make it home to. Beyond that, the whole situation is bad: even if I don't end up ventilated by the bad guys, or even the good guys, I'm staring down a ruinous amount of legal fees from every angle. Everything from felony discharge of a weapon on school grounds, to lawsuits from the bad guy's estates, to lawsuits from children's parents. I might as well commit sepukko if I tag an innocent bystander.

Realistically? I interject to help way more than I should. Given the very specific prompt, that I'm literally just standing right there with my SOCOM 16 or my AR, spare mags on a chest rig and my med kit right there, who knows. Some things just gonna happen in the moment.

^^^^^^^This, plus I would like to add one more reason. With all this worry about getting shot and killed by another police officer no one is considering the emotional affect on the police officer when he finds out that the person he killed was an armed citizen who was trying to help out.

Just a thought . Good Samaritan goes in and kills or injures a kid . You'll never talk your way out of that one .

At my recent Active Shooter response class, it was brought up and confirmed that most of the deaths (this also happened at Parkland) occurred in the first 3 minutes with the FIRST 911 call (people panic, I have had people tell afterwards they were delayed in calling 911 because they couldn't find the "11" button on their phone) coming in after those 3 minutes. So if you want to prevent or limit the killing it has to occur in that first couple minutes; be it a lucky on duty close by or on scene, or an off duty officer or prepared citizen being on scene as it starts.

The reality is there won't be an accurate description of the suspect or good guy with a gun coming from dispatch through the radios. Hell in one mall shooting, we had an idiot call in a man in dark clothing with with rifle at another location in the mall....it was a UNIFORMED Police Officer with his rifle responding to the initial shooting. Afterwards, the idiot who called, acknowledged they knew it was an officer when they called and actually tried to complain that the Officer shouldn't have a rifle. The descriptions will be a tall/short white/black male/female with long hair or completely bald. Clothing color and description will even be worse. Cops on scene will have ferret out the reliable witnesses who actually saw it and aren't completely panicked.

If you are going to engage, do it joined at the hip of the officer, remind them to radio your description and that they are teamed up with a armed citizen. If alone, cover, cover, and even more cover and have situational awareness, be aware with more officers arrive on scene, listen to their orders, and comply while communicating.

Another tip: if you are with an officer, listen to the Dispatcher on the radio to hear how the dispatcher is getting information at. Many dispatchers are almost screaming into the radio, panicking and "pre-loading" the response officers emotionally, changing a rational officer into the Hulk and Hulk must smash when they arrive on scene. A dispatcher who is matter of fact giving out information is great. The dispatcher for the Aurora Colorado theater shooting was fantastic and even kept the officers who first went into the theater where the shooting and deaths occurred from panicking. As the supervisor at the scene, I have ordered panicking dispatchers off the radio and had them replaced with someone else. Officers told me later that just hearing a calm rational voice on the radio lowered their stress level from "oh shit everyone is going to die" to "we got this, stop/arrest bad guy, secure scene, render medical aid, get EMS on scene".

Hell to the No!!!!

For the reasons already stated, NO. You will just FUBAR the police response (I mean, unless you're directly partnered with a responding officer and their only backup is 15 mins out, but this seems unrealistic).

Cops are getting all sorts of confusing input, from radio traffic to people and bystanders yelling at them. The last thing you want is for a report of YOU coming in as THE shooter, and diverting the actual response.

Now, the scenario changes some when you are presented with an IMMEDIATE threat in your area. You're in a theater or church and an active shooter comes in blazing. Ya, I might jump right in. But I've seen a good number of video showing how do-gooders get whacked in these situations. You better know what you're doing and have tactical presence (and have more training than just going through your CCW class).

Unless you can immediately end an active threat, just GTFO and protect your own assets (family), and don't complicate the response for the on-duty folks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Southern Rebel:
I'm with Para on the old age approach - I would rather die by friendly fire than die in a nursing home. If I KNEW going in that I would be killed, I would still swap this tired old body for saving the life of even one little elementary school kid./QUOTE]

Pretty much where I am also....

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Because some of us have been through full scale active shooter drills with dozens of police on the scene and have seen how that would play out.

That's not what I was getting at, but I'm also not looking for a debate. You don't have to qualify your position.

I just love the twisting of what's been said. You guys honestly think that I and others here are going to hurdle police barricades and rush past twenty cops on the scene like some kind of fucking maniac?

In this thread, it's been well-established that active shooter training addresses specifically the intervention of non-police personnel, and that training seems to provide one answer only- leave it all to the police. There's no room for any scenario where there's a lone officer against multiple shooters, or one or more police on the scene having been injured or killed. There are endless- endless- possible scenarios, but the instructor at the class you've taken said "Just stay out of it."
Everyone here has been on this planet long enough to know that there is nothing neat and tidy in this world. Real life is not the pages of a training manual, and you also know the saying that no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

I wish those of you who want to keep repeating what your instructor told you would pay me and others here the compliment of acknowledging that we are not reckless buffoons who just want to get the opportunity to shoot at someone.

Endless scenarios- scenarios which are not in the manual. Scenarios which your instructor didn't cover because he or the author of the manual he is using have never conceived of them. You just don't know what could happen, because the possibilities are endless.

I've said I would do what I could to help and it would be peachy if you guys could acknowledge that I and others here would not interfere with police at an active shooter scene.

Sticking to the op's scenario:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
You get word that there are three active killer incidents involving multiple shooters ongoing at schools in your town and you suddenly hear gunfire at another middle school that is virtually next door to where you are at the time.

This coordinated attack on multiple targets would have to be a terrorist attack similar to the book Day of Wrath by William Forstchen. The entire city or town would be in utter chaos, LE not just trying to deal with the multiple schools under attack, but other schools not yet hit as well. Through-the-roof panic, parents, out of their minds, hitting the roads, all trying to get to their kids. And the panic likely spreads to schools in other cities. Sheer pandemonium. Like 9/11; one plane hitting a building = accident. Four planes doing the same = terrorist attack.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
...and she says, “Grab all the ammo you can and stay with me.”

100%, if I can help, I will follow her, damn the torpedoes.

And even if it is a single school incident in my community, IF police needed assistance from civilians, I would gladly help, with a gun in my hands or not.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
Sticking to the op's scenario:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
You get word that there are three active killer incidents involving multiple shooters ongoing at schools in your town and you suddenly hear gunfire at another middle school that is virtually next door to where you are at the time.

This coordinated attack on multiple targets would have to be a terrorist attack similar to the book Day of Wrath by William Forstchen. The entire city or town would be in utter chaos, LE not just trying to deal with the multiple schools under attack, but other schools not yet hit as well. Through-the-roof panic, parents, out of their minds, hitting the roads, all trying to get to their kids. And the panic likely spreads to schools in other cities. Sheer pandemonium. Like 9/11; one plane hitting a building = accident. Four planes doing the same = terrorist attack.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
...and she says, “Grab all the ammo you can and stay with me.”

100%, if I can help, I will follow her, damn the torpedoes.

And even if it is a single school incident in my community, IF police needed assistance from civilians, I would gladly help, with a gun in my hands or not.

I thought I had posted that in this thread, but I guess it was another. It's exactly the scenario I was envisioning when considering the OP's post.

I've been a part of a couple of AD scenario events. A friend of mine actually got to be one of the "bad guys" shooting blanks for a training event. The reality is that the woke responses of most departments and schools WILL get more kids killed. It isn't difficult to have the upperhand when you know how the department and school will respond. Another good example in addition to the Day of Wrath by Forstchen would be the Daily Wire film, "Run Hide Fight" https://www.dailywire.com/videos/run-hide-fight

Sheep hiding in corners tend to get slaughtered like the sheep they are. A large reason why I do not trust public schools is that the "teachers" these days are either unwilling or unable to protect my children.

The real surprise in this thread is just how pervasive the cowardness of the day has become in this nation. Too many of you think you'll be able to call 911 when bad things happen. Too many of you have shopped out your own responsibilities to so-called "professionals". If I've learned a few things in participating in these scenario trainings...its that most responders really only have one thing going for them, the "never quit" attitude with the determination to run towards the danger. Few of them have been in a shooting scenario themselves, and the woke response protocols from their departments and school districts have set them up for failure. Standing by while you let an officer rush in, alone, while you do nothing and children are being slaughtered is even worse than those who filmed on the train as a man violently raped a woman. It's quite honestly, despicable to me.

quote:

Too many of you have shopped out your own responsibilities to so-called "professionals"

This is a behavior that I have called out for years, and it doesn't help that some of this is conditioning by the government itself. Don't be a hero, be a good witness, cower and hide, we'll come and protect you. But it doesn't always work out that way does it?

One of my good friends is a medic with a large agency. In the vast majority of the situations where there is the possibility of shooting they arrive somewhere nearby to stage. At that point, once the scene is safe they enter. I would have to clarify with him if this is all mass shootings or just school shootings, but they do not stage for school shootings.

They have big blue bulletproof vests that say medic on them, they will arrive and don their vests, grab their bags, and go in with the next officer(s) that they see making entry. Not only may they need to provide medical assistance to the officers themselves, but they are counting on there being victims that need immediate treatment.

The police have learned this lesson. Medics have learned this lesson. Seems that more of the public needs to learn it. Standing around waiting (at best), or doing nothing (at worst) only results in more death.

Yes, as long as LE knew I was assisting. And especially if children were involved, I’d definitely risk my life to save them.

I hope I would help.

I have been carrying a sig on my hip or in my pocket for 15 or 20 years.

I have never had the gun leave my pocket or holster for all of that time.

I have never shot at anything but little paper targets.

I hope I help, I hope I don't miss and hit someone innocent.

I hope I don't freeze.

I rarely miss the 8"x 10" target.

It doesn't move, it doesn't shoot back.

One of my favorite lines is by Mike Tyson,
“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.”

My plan is to punch the other guy in the face first.

Hope it never happens.