I would do everything I could to assist.

Years ago I trained in whitewater rescues and worked for a canoe livery patrolling rapids in the Delaware river. Rule number 1 on rescues: As a rescuer, do not add to the problem by requiring rescue for yourself.

So it is with this scenario. I am not trained for a school shooting and would likely present more confusion than solution. I voted no for that reason. Sometimes assisting is simply staying out of the way and helping in the background.

Be very careful what you involve yourself in.

You will have multiple jurisdictions responding. They are trained for the situation and their only job is to get the children out safely and secure the shooter.

You could be viewed as a threat and be cuffed or worse before the situation is resolved.

Voted yes based on the scenario. Living where I do, unless I happened to know the responding officer personally I can’t imagine she’d accept the offer. I’d still make it, and if she accepted I’d go, I just don’t think it likely to play out that way.

In flesheatingvirus’s scenario, I’d expect the risk to be even higher. Because I lack the training to clear schools solo (does anyone have that?), because responding officers are likely to see me as a threat, because I’d have no backup. I might still go, but if I did it would be with the knowledge that I was being near suicidally stupid.

ETA: A lot of good information in this thread. In the unlikely event I’d definitely ask for the traffic vest. The comments about not being able to live with oneself after doing nothing hit home and would definitely be a factor in flesheatingvirus’ scenario. Still, it is worth being realistic about what one is getting into…

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Of course. They can go buy themselves a hamburger.

Don't choke on it.

Listen to me- mind your manners. I am the very last person here you want to pull this shit with. You can and will state your position without this kind of shit or you will refrain from commenting. I'll not say it again.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Untrained in what? I swear to God, some of you either think very little of your ability to think on your feet, ...

And some of us know we don't have much ability to think on their feet. I'm one such individual. It's just the way I'm wired. Or mis-wired It's something at which I'm not very good and never have been.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Again, tell me how the training of the coward who stood by and listened to people being killed at Parkland helped anyone, in any way.

In my case it's not a question of courage. It's a question of knowing my limitations.

That being said, and on reflection: Being actually put in the situation, rather than thinking about it in the quiet comfort of my home: I might very well aid the officer. I know my heart would encourage me to do so.

I honestly do not know.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
If someone kicks your door, are you going to roll over and show your belly, because you're not "trained"?

Not even remotely the same thing. And, no: I would not just roll over. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to always have a handgun close to hand.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
Now if I were to roll up on a patrol officer in the wild being shot at by a couple POS, would I pull the AR from behind the seat of my truck, establish cover, and lend aid? Absolutely.

This ^^^^^

Without a second thought. In the wild, in the city, or anywhere in-between.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
If someone kicks your door, are you going to roll over and show your belly, because you're not "trained"?

Not even remotely the same thing. And, no: I would not just roll over. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to always have a handgun close to hand.

On the contrary; it is exactly the same thing.

This isn't deep, I know.

There was a line in the movie 'Starman'. It didn't move me when I saw the movie as a kid, but after my brother pointed it out to me, I've recognized it in life ever since. It may not be exact, so paraphrasing, Jeff Bridges, who played an alien, observed about people, "When things are at the worst, people are at their best."

I’d like to believe that I wouldn’t hesitate to risk my life in order to save the lives of innocent children. Yeah, I might get shot by responding officers (or the active shooter, funny nobody here seems worried about that) but if it saved the lives of kids I think that’s worth it.

It’s not ego. And I don’t want to do something just to do something. In the scenario given where LE accepted my offer to help, I’d help. That said I’m fully aware that outside of a few unlikely scenarios I’d be in the way and so in most cases I would stay away.

I think I would help in certain conditions. I would have to make that judgement on site. I'm not a trained combatant but I can shoot and move. I think much of what I'd do would be before the police arrived. In a school shooting I'd gladly risk my life to save as many youngsters as I could.

Don't know if I could live with myself if I didn't help. So yeah, this recently retired LEO is all in with this scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
If someone kicks your door, are you going to roll over and show your belly, because you're not "trained"?

Not even remotely the same thing. And, no: I would not just roll over. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to always have a handgun close to hand.

On the contrary; it is exactly the same thing.

Differences:

• I know, like the back of my hand, every ingress/egress point, nook, cranny, hiding place, and potential defensive position of our home.
  
• Even with guests in our home: I will know who they are and will know, or have a reasonable idea, of where they are.
  

Same, by the way, would have applied to my old place of business, where I likewise would not hesitate to defend.

Conversely: In an active shooter situation in a school, shopping mall, or other place populated by a number of strangers: I know none of those things.

I can think of endless ways it can end badly, but I'm trying to help if I can. It's been my experience that people really do step up when they have to. I do believe this country is starting to understand how to react to active shooters and I do expect people to fight back more often and more violently.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
I guess I'm in a different situation?

I have my rifle plate carrier in the trunk and it's marked Police on front and back.
I'd call the local PD and advise them I'm going in and my description.

I have been to 4 or 5 Active Shooter Training programs. The police will tell you that the arriving officers will not get the word that you are a good guy.

We can't forget about this and what happened here:

Johnny Hurley, hailed by police as a “good Samaritan” for his actions during the Olde Town Arvada shooting in June, was killed by a single gunshot to the pelvis after a responding officer mistakenly assumed Hurley was the active shooter, according to a coroner’s report released Monday.

ensigmatic, you are looking at this at a superficial level. It's clear that you don't understand the point I'm making and I am not inclined to try to make you see it.

I'd like to think I'd help, even though I have zero training (I have very limited shooting experience, I don't hunt and I only own a pistol that I shoot at paper target occassionally). However, with kids being shot - sometimes you just have pull up your big boy pants and do the right thing.

I'd tell the police officer - OK, I've got your back - I'll cover you from behind so you have one less thing to worry about. I would stay VERY close. But the second more police show up, I'm dropping my gun and laying down on the ground with my hands above my head. Best case scenario, I'm cuffed and arrested, which can be sorted out later. Worst case scenario - well, I think we all know what that would be.

Would I like to help? Yes. Would I realistically be able to help? No. I carry for defense against an immediate threat, for example a home break-in or a robbery "gone bad." My only training is self-taught against stationary paper targets, not a situation like this. I'd have to say … probably not. Unless and until it actually happens, you can't make a blanket, one-size-fits-all statement.

A question for those in law enforcement, does your department permit a lone Officer to respond in such situations? Would a police officer ever say “yes” to a citizen offering such assistance? If so, wouldn’t the officer offer a vest clearly marked as POLICE to the citizen? Would the officer lose their job for involving a citizen?

Would I help? Add me to the list of people who say yes.

I think in a lot of cases what we civilians can offer is a set of hands to help people who might be hurt. Those of us with military, police, EMT, fireman, or other training in first aid can be useful.

There is a case in NC where someone saw an officer get shot (I think along I-95) and followed the shooter's car until he was caught. I forget the details, but it took courage to do that.

Use a weapon? Presenting a weapon could be risky. The challenge is to avoid fratricide with the arriving police -- indeed, an off duty cop or a plain clothes cop could show up too, and that would just add to the problem. It is all situational, but if kids or other innocents were being hurt by someone, yes, it would be time to go the distance, regardless of risk. I think most of us would.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
We can't forget about this and what happened here:

Johnny Hurley, hailed by police as a “good Samaritan” for his actions during the Olde Town Arvada shooting in June, was killed by a single gunshot to the pelvis after a responding officer mistakenly assumed Hurley was the active shooter, according to a coroner’s report released Monday.

Why is everyone so hyper focused on being shot by police and nobody is mentioning the possibility of being shot by the active shooter?

The guy above knew that there was a possibility of being killed when he engaged the shooter. He took the risk anyway. It’s unfortunate that he was killed by police but the end result is the same as if he’d been killed by the shooter. If he’d sustained a fatal gunshot wound while stopping the shooter somehow I doubt that he would have been mentioned twice already in this thread.