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ATF proposing to ban/restrict pistol “braces.” Very short comment period: Please get involved. Login/Join 
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
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Posts: 10851 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
hello darkness
my old friend
Picture of gw3971
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Republican politicians sure are silent on this matter.I sent email's to both my senators. Haven't heard much from anyone else on this matter.

I have a couple of friends who already efiled their compliance. Cheap bastards were always to cheap to pay for a tax stamp for a can or an sbr and awlays saying screw the government. Now that they can get a "free" stamp it's all good. I pointed out that while the rest of us fight this overreach the ATF is going to jump on the fact that bunches of people will Comply to show that the rule isn't that bad and the holdouts are just criminal complainers.
 
Posts: 7724 | Location: West Jordan, Utah | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SigSentry
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Gee, thanks ATF. that's so kind of you. But shouldn't the rule explicitly state "weapon made from a short-barrel rifle (SBR)"?.

The more I read the less faith I have in any discretion on behalf of the ATF. What if someone chooses to replace the short barrel with a 16"+ barrel. Do they have to destroy the short barrel? How will constructive possession be applied in these situations?


I blame all this on Bond's KPOS in Spectre. So dangerous, I blows up the building.


"The Department recognizes that the removal of a “stabilizing brace” from a firearm that was originally received as a “short-barreled rifle” results in the production of a “weapon made from a rifle,” as defined by the NFA. However,theDepartmentin its enforcement discretion will allow persons to reconfigure the firearm to a pistol by [INSERT DATE 120 DAYS AFTER DATE OF PUBLICATION IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER] and will not require the registration of these firearms as a “weapon made from a rifle.”
 
Posts: 3534 | Registered: May 30, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
How will constructive possession be applied in these situations?

This is overplayed all the time. The relevant supreme court case is US v Thompson Center. And no just having those two parts absent some intent would not be an issue.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 11023 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jcsabolt2
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
How will constructive possession be applied in these situations?

This is overplayed all the time. The relevant supreme court case is US v Thompson Center. And no just having those two parts absent some intent would not be an issue.


Just to save everyone a few clicks from looking it up.
United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Co.
"The court ruled in Thompson Center Arms' favor in that the carbine conversion kit did not constitute a short-barreled rifle, primarily because the kit contained both the stock and the 16-inch barrel.

Justice Scalia also noted that there is a warning carved on the stock telling the user to not attach the stock to the receiver when the 10-inch barrel is attached to the receiver or vice versa.

This circumstance caused the court to apply the rule of lenity since the NFA carries criminal penalties with it. This meant that ambiguous statutes are interpreted against the government."


----------
“Nobody can ever take your integrity away from you. Only you can give up your integrity.” H. Norman Schwarzkopf
 
Posts: 3635 | Registered: July 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
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quote:
Originally posted by gw3971:
I have a couple of friends who already efiled their compliance. Cheap bastards were always to cheap to pay for a tax stamp for a can or an sbr and awlays saying screw the government. Now that they can get a "free" stamp it's all good.


They didn't want to pay to have a stock, now they don't have to pay to have a stock. They said "screw the government" and the government relented. What's the problem? What I think a good chunk of the animus I'm seeing here and other places in the firearms community is from people who paid for tax stamps who are mad that others won't have to. What if, by some turn of events I can't even imagine, the NFA gets repealed? I can see it now: Many, many gun owners who have paid many, many thousands of dollars for NFA stuff are going to shit giant gold bricks because suddenly others who haven't paid all that money will get to have the same things. It smacks of "but Mom, it's not fair." There's millions of us who bought these things, and if many or most of us want to go ahead and register, I'm not seeing how that makes us the bad guys. Trust me, I'm seeing all the arguments from people who would have me believe that, and they're falling flat with me.

quote:
Originally posted by gw3971:
I pointed out that while the rest of us fight this overreach the ATF is going to jump on the fact that bunches of people will Comply to show that the rule isn't that bad and the holdouts are just criminal complainers.


The problem here is nobody is going to take someone's place if they get pinched with an unregistered SBR after this amnesty. That ten year prison sentence is an individual event, not a team sport. There's a vocal and combative segment of our community trying to tell all of us what we ought to be doing. If people don't want to comply, I truly wish them the best with that. What I do or don't do has nothing to do with you and I won't be leveraged with this "we all stand together or hang individually" stuff because we all quite literally will go to prison individually as we are found with these items if we don't do the amnesty registry.


______________________________________________
Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17241 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
blame canada
Picture of AKSuperDually
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quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Originally posted by gw3971:
I have a couple of friends who already efiled their compliance. Cheap bastards were always to cheap to pay for a tax stamp for a can or an sbr and awlays saying screw the government. Now that they can get a "free" stamp it's all good.


They didn't want to pay to have a stock, now they don't have to pay to have a stock. They said "screw the government" and the government relented. What's the problem? What I think a good chunk of the animus I'm seeing here and other places in the firearms community is from people who paid for tax stamps who are mad that others won't have to. What if, by some turn of events I can't even imagine, the NFA gets repealed? I can see it now: Many, many gun owners who have paid many, many thousands of dollars for NFA stuff are going to shit giant gold bricks because suddenly others who haven't paid all that money will get to have the same things. It smacks of "but Mom, it's not fair." There's millions of us who bought these things, and if many or most of us want to go ahead and register, I'm not seeing how that makes us the bad guys. Trust me, I'm seeing all the arguments from people who would have me believe that, and they're falling flat with me.

quote:
Originally posted by gw3971:
I pointed out that while the rest of us fight this overreach the ATF is going to jump on the fact that bunches of people will Comply to show that the rule isn't that bad and the holdouts are just criminal complainers.


The problem here is nobody is going to take someone's place if they get pinched with an unregistered SBR after this amnesty. That ten year prison sentence is an individual event, not a team sport. There's a vocal and combative segment of our community trying to tell all of us what we ought to be doing. If people don't want to comply, I truly wish them the best with that. What I do or don't do has nothing to do with you and I won't be leveraged with this "we all stand together or hang individually" stuff because we all quite literally will go to prison individually as we are found with these items if we don't do the amnesty registry.

You aren't wrong. Playing the other side of the argument though, the more people who capitulate to this tyranny, the more people who hold out will be screwed. It's a divide in the country they're willing to undertake, so they win.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014 Big Grin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Posts: 13957 | Location: On the mouth of the great Kenai River | Registered: June 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
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There’s only one realistic outcome, and that’s that many will choose to take the amnesty, and many will not. It was never a realistic possibility that all of us were going to give them the finger, and even more unrealistic to expect them to say “ok, we give up, we’ll leave you alone” if that somehow happened. If we believe they’re truly after us, then it’s far easier for me to believe they’d want us all to call their bluff so they could throw every last one of us in prison. I also don’t think that’s realistic.


______________________________________________
Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17241 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After some consideration, I have decided that I purchased mine to be a pistol, not a pseudo SBR, as it can be transported between states without special permits being applied for and it can be kept in my vehicle in loaded condition in my home state (and others). It can even be a concealed weapon with my permit. So I am going to cool my jets and preemptively obtain the inexpensive part required to remove the brace if it needs to go but not do the conversion until the lawsuits play out if this travesty of justice should prevail. So if the brace can stay, fine, and if not that is okay with me also. Either way I will be able to use it as I initially intended.



The “POLICE"
Their job Is To Save Your Ass,
Not Kiss It

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Posts: 2898 | Location: See der Rabbits, Iowa | Registered: June 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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^^^^ Indeed, sir.

I'll tell ya', the amount of not just capitulation, but immediate capitulation, I'm seeing from so many Americans is quite sad. Though I must say, after what I witnessed in the last three years of covid, I'm not surprised one bit.

Not. Onnnnne. Bit.


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
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Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

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Posts: 30462 | Location: Elv. 7,000 feet, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SigSentry
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Sure, if US v TCA actually applied, the ATF would kindly ask everyone to remove their braces, allow for physical exemptions, apologize for the decade of confusion and give future warnings regarding SBRs. This is about regulating out of existence the AR platform of which the AR pistol has become the chink in the armor making it vulnerable to attack.

The AR pistol is just one just of the many braced firearm types these days and since those can more easily be removed from the ATF's radar than those that can't be converted essily, there may be fewer of those that register, maybe. Hopefully this is all for nothing as this is blatant executive overreach.

 
Posts: 3534 | Registered: May 30, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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Forgotten Weapons has a good review on the history of short barrel rifles as reason for classification.




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Posts: 5267 | Location: USA | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
hello darkness
my old friend
Picture of gw3971
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I have two AR pistols with short barrels(8") as truck guns. Reading the new rule I still can't figure if I had a brace on them if they could still be considered a pistol or is it a wanna be SBR? Reading the super vague rules it sounds as if I would need to take my chances and hope for the best or go to ATF field office and ask for an inspection? They never give defining rules, lengths, weights and just how many factors are required to fail the test and go to the gray bar hotel. I pray this rule is destroyed in the courts but I have little faith on the courts and our government. I'm still going to wait for a couple of months and see where the lawsuits go but this regulation is insane.
 
Posts: 7724 | Location: West Jordan, Utah | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His Royal Hiney
Picture of Rey HRH
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quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Some of us here ain't even THAT LUCKY!
Behind enemy lines in Illnois, not on are we dealing with the Il State laws and registering them here, we're screwed when it comes to AR Pistols.
There's no SBR, Full Auto or Suppressed here in Illinois. Verboten.

We can't turn our pistols into SBR's! It's not like this anti-gun State is all of a sudden going to legalize SBR's just to accommodate this grey area.


Oh, shit. I didn't even think about that part.

I am banking that some pro-2A groups will file lawsuits against this, especially the brace manufacturers.



"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946.
 
Posts: 19731 | Location: The Free State of Arizona - Ditat Deus | Registered: March 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by gw3971:
I have two AR pistols with short barrels(8") as truck guns. Reading the new rule I still can't figure if I had a brace on them if they could still be considered a pistol or is it a wanna be SBR? Reading the super vague rules it sounds as if I would need to take my chances and hope for the best or go to ATF field office and ask for an inspection? They never give defining rules, lengths, weights and just how many factors are required to fail the test and go to the gray bar hotel. I pray this rule is destroyed in the courts but I have little faith on the courts and our government. I'm still going to wait for a couple of months and see where the lawsuits go but this regulation is insane.


The ATF has a worksheet available to score your pistol and determine if you need a tax stamp or not. I can't remember the form number though.
I did look at it and I know my "friends" AR pistol is technically an SBR. No doubt at all.


I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not.
 
Posts: 3652 | Location: The armpit of Ohio | Registered: August 18, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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^^ they threw the worksheet out the window and ruled that ALL braced pistols are now SBRs.

It’s that simple. If it has a brace-it’s an SBR.

Remove it
Destroy it
Turn it into the ATF
Register it eform1



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein

“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

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Posts: 11311 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alienator
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My ruling is they can fuck off. I'll be ignoring it.


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Posts: 7087 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not to get off track, but trusts seem to play into all of this. In terms of trusts, can you school me on the advantages of them?
- My beneficiaries can also use an item in the trust, correct?
- And if I croak, the items in the trust can go to them without a Form 4 transfer tax, correct? But if they live in a separate state (or possibly even in the same state), the item (if an SBR or SBS) would still have to be transferred via an FFL, correct?
Hard to get my arms around all these permutations.
Thanks much.
 
Posts: 826 | Location: Baltimore, MD | Registered: March 29, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I've always been Crazy!
kept me from goin Insane!
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Not sure if this has been mentioned or not. When originally made and sold every one of these was considered a pistol, manufactured as a pistol, sold as a pistol and transferred as a pistol. How can it suddenly be considered a rifle? It was never a rifle, was not designed as a rifle nor intended to be a rifle.


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Posts: 2182 | Location: Lyndon,KS | Registered: November 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No, not like
Bill Clinton
Picture of BigSwede
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quote:
Remove it
Destroy it
Turn it into the ATF
Register it eform1



I'm going with option number five



 
Posts: 5361 | Location: GA | Registered: September 23, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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