Well, I was considering doing the amnesty thing, and trying to add stuff to my trust. I think there's enough valid concern about how this is all going to go that I'm just going to go the old fashioned route and pay the $200. It's not chump change, but I'm paying for peace of mind that I'll be doing it the way it's been done for years and not wading into new and murky waters. I'm too new to this to want to add stress by navigating all that anyway. Besides, I'm going to Form 1 at least three, and probably four different guns, and there's no sense doing one of them one way and the others another. KISS principle.

I'll wait this out but I ordered a pistol buffer tube in the meantime which has no provisions for a collapsible stock.

Is there a reliable AR gas piston upper that does away with the buffer tube and has a modified BCG that doesn't need a buffer tube to operate?

Tony.

I’m sure there’s others, but the PSA JAKL springs to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
Is there a reliable AR gas piston upper that does away with the buffer tube and has a modified BCG that doesn't need a buffer tube to operate?

There's the Brownells BRN-180 uppers and the significantly more expensive Sig MCX uppers, which are both basically AR-15 uppers modified to use an AR-18-style piston operating mechanism that install on standard AR-15 lowers, with no buffer tube needed. Some additional conversion parts are also needed for the MCX uppers, but the BRN-180 uppers are straight drop-in uppers.

https://www.brownells.com/.asp...ge/brownells-brn-180

https://www.sigsauerparts.com/...s/browse/instock/yes

And also:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I’m sure there’s others, but the PSA JAKL springs to mind.

Which is basically an AR-15 upper modified to use an AK-style piston operating system that installs on a standard AR-15 lower with no buffer tube needed. But again, a few additional conversion parts are needed.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/jakl/uppers.html

I'm curious if a foam buffer tube sleeve like the one in the link below will be legal on pistols.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the ATF documents.

https://guntecusa.com/product/...er-tube-foam-sleeve/

quote:

Originally posted by rackrack:
I'm curious if a foam buffer tube sleeve like the one in the link below will be legal on pistols.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the ATF documents.

https://guntecusa.com/product/...er-tube-foam-sleeve/

Foam buffer tube covers preceded braces by a couple decades. I'm not aware of anyone that ever questioned their legality on AR pistols, and I don't see how this rule would apply to them...

So if one were going to put a pistol or pistols in the property of their trust, how does one go about that? And I'd assume the time limit for beating the deadline on that is tomorrow morning, right?

quote:

Originally posted by rackrack:
I'm curious if a foam buffer tube sleeve like the one in the link below will be legal on pistols.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the ATF documents.

https://guntecusa.com/product/...er-tube-foam-sleeve/

That’s how mine came. And if I’m reading correctly, removing a brace makes the “SBR” into a pistol and isn’t subject to the ruling or registration requirement.

Removal
Changing the barrel length to 16” +
Registration
Or turning it over to the atf
Or destruction
Are the choices atf has given you

quote:

So if one were going to put a pistol or pistols in the property of their trust, how does one go about that? And I'd assume the time limit for beating the deadline on that is tomorrow morning, right?

I'm trying to learn about trusts and this is a question I have not found an answer to. It does appear to give the same 120 day "amnesty" to file or add to a trust.

Just add the items to your schedule of assets and date it Jan 1, 2023.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by rackrack:
I'm curious if a foam buffer tube sleeve like the one in the link below will be legal on pistols.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the ATF documents.

https://guntecusa.com/product/...er-tube-foam-sleeve/

That’s how mine came. And if I’m reading correctly, removing a brace makes the “SBR” into a pistol and isn’t subject to the ruling or registration requirement.

Removal
Changing the barrel length to 16” +
Registration
Or turning it over to the atf
Or destruction
Are the choices atf has given you

From the final ruling at the bottom of page 24:

After the SB15 classification, ATF received newly designed “stabilizing brace” devicesfromothercompanies. Onecompanyin2014submitteda“PistolOvermoldKit” with a “foam padded stabilizer tube” intended to accommodate a Glock-type pistol and requested a classification of the firearm to determine if it would be regulated under the NFA. Thecompanylikeneditsproducttoinstallingareceiverextension/buffertubeon an AR type pistol, a configuration that FATD had earlier decided was not a shoulder stock when installed on that type of firearm and did not result in a change of that pistol’s classification. However, FATD concluded that the “foam padded stabilizer tube” served “no legitimate, functional purpose other than to extend additional contact surface rearward” on Glock-type pistols and therefore would result in the manufacture of a “short-barreled rifle.”30

Looks like they considered the foam a SBR item.

^^^ Apples and Oranges. Having something hanging behind a Glock served no functional purpose as everything required for Glock to function is in the normal Glock frame. However, an AR-15 buffer tube hanging behind the Lower serves a function purpose as the buffer assembly is required to operate.

I do know a similar foam sleeve didn't fit over the 6-position buffer tube on my buddy's SBA3.

Right, what's described on Page 24 and 25 is not a foam buffer tube sleeve, but instead a “foam padded stabilizer tube”.

So if one has several NFA items in a trust already? But one also has a Braced Pistol.

Sounds like it would be best to just file the Form1 for the pistol? I mean... If I've got x4 NFA items. I'm already on the list.

quote:

Originally posted by kent j:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
So if one were going to put a pistol or pistols in the property of their trust, how does one go about that? And I'd assume the time limit for beating the deadline on that is tomorrow morning, right?

I'm trying to learn about trusts and this is a question I have not found an answer to. It does appear to give the same 120 day "amnesty" to file or add to a trust.

I you have a Trust, and are even remotely considering taking advantage of the Tax-exempt SBR Registration/Stamp during the 120-Day Grace period (which also specifies you can adopt the existing markings on the Firearm, and avoid the requirement to engrave the Firearm as 'The Maker'), I would add the Pistol(s) to the Property Schedule of your Trust TODAY! You can always remove the Pistol(s) later if you change your mind, but it must be on the schedule PRIOR to the 'Rule' being published in the Federal Register, which 'could' happen tomorrow!

From the ATF eForm1 Page:

quote:

To lawfully register the firearm to a trust, the trust must have possessed the firearm before January 13, 2023. Accordingly, you must submit with the application documentation that establishes the trust possessed the firearm before January 13, 2023.

Can I register my "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm to my trust pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F?

A trust may not register a “stabilizing brace” equipped firearm pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F unless the trust can establish through documentary evidence that the trust possessed the firearm before January 13, 2023.

Under the final rule, the Attorney General has authorized a tax forbearance that allows current possessors of "stabilizing brace" equipped firearms that meet the definition of "rifle" and have a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches to register the firearms tax-free. A current possessor is a person1 who possessed the "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm prior to January 13, 2023.

Accordingly, any trust that seeks to register a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm pursuant to Final Rule 2021R-08F must include with the eForm 1 application evidence that establishes the trust is the current possessor of the "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm, and possessed it before January 13, 2023. This evidence will generally include the signed, dated, and notarized terms of the trust or trust schedules that list or provide a description of the property held in trust. Accordingly, for trust applicants, ATF will perform a thorough review of the trust documents provided with the eForm 1 application to ensure the firearm sought to be registered to the trust was property possessed by the trust before January 13, 2023. Therefore, an eForm 1 application to register a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm to a trust will be disapproved if the applicant fails to demonstrate the trust possessed the firearm before January 13, 2023.

How can a current possessor who is an individual register a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm to a trust or other legal entity?

A "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm that is currently possessed by an individual after January 13, 2023 can only be registered to that individual pursuant to Final Rule 2021R-08F. Any individual possessing a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm in his or her individual capacity who wants to register the firearm to a trust or other legal entity must first register the firearm as an individual within the 120-day tax forbearance period, then submit a tax-paid ATF Form 4 transferring the firearm from the individual to the trust or other legal entity.

Note that the dates referenced above were on the eForms website, NOT in the published rule. There was also a separate instruction/acknowledgement that indicated that any Trust would need to have all relevant documents establishing the Trust executed and notarized prior to January 13, 2023 as well. These date 'should' actually coincide with the date the 'Rule' is published in the Federal Register, NOT the date it was announced.

On my Trust, all Trust property is listed on 'Schedule A'. While that document is signed and dated, I have NEVER submitted a 'notarized copy' of this document to the ATF. Well, based on what the ATF put forward for re: documentation requirements shown above, today, for the first time EVER, I just got my 'Schedule A' notarized. At least now, I'm covered as today is a Federal Holiday, so the earliest they could publish the ‘Rule’ to the Federal Register would be tomorrow.

Here's something to think about: Prior to this 'Rule', all these Pistols w/ Stabilizing Braces were not regulated by the NFA, so why would they be listed on a Property Schedule of an NFA Trust unless you were preparing to file a Form 1?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nhracecraft,

Well, I have done what I can do. I emailed both senators and my congressional representative regarding BATF and their continuing lunacy. Attached is my letter and you are welcome to use it if you personalize and use some of your language.

I will support GOA and SAF in their upcoming suits as I have little faith that NRA will do anything for us.

RMD


"


January 16, 2023

Dear :

I am writing today regarding the recent decision by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms ("ATF") regarding the inclusion of forearm braces attached to pistols under the 1934 National Firearms Act ("NFA").

This agency, after waffling for 1.5 years as to the legality, has now made a ruling (shortly to be enacted into law) that said braces, when attached to a pistol, now constitute a "short barrel rifle".

Prior to this decision, the ATF said that braces were fine, then they were not fine and then they were fine, but, now they constitutes a component covered under the NFA. Such vacillation is lunacy but typical of my experience with the ATF.

This decision will make literally millions of forearm brace owners potential felons simply because an agency comprised of NON-ELECTED OFFICIALS has decided that this is how it will be.

In my mind this constitutes "legislation without representation". Too many federal agencies compromised of non-elected bureaucrats are allowed to make law with minimal oversight by Congress, the Executive Branch, and the Judicial Branch. This must stop. The ATF and other agencies must be reined in and made to stop legislating when Congress has that power to itself. Simply publishing a rule in the Federal Register, collecting a few comments, and then finalizing that ruling IS NOT LEGISLATION. You were elected to represent the people of this state and to protect them from a Federal government gone wild. It is now time to step up to that responsibility.


Further, it is high time that the NFA of 1934 be repealed and American citizens have their second amendment rights restored to the levels our founders saw them. This bit of law has fully and completely outlived its usefulness and must be repealed for the sake of the shooting public. This alone will take a great deal of wind out of ATF's sails.

Please give these issues serious consideration and act upon the wishes of your constituents with regard to this matter.

Thank you for your time and attention.

Sincerely yours,


"

Awesome. I can't find schedule anything on my NFA trust.

Fantastic time to go stumbling into this whole part of the firearms world.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Awesome. I can't find schedule anything on my NFA trust.

Fantastic time to go stumbling into this whole part of the firearms world.

IANAL, but regardless, you would be well advised to consult with the attorney that did your Trust on this. They should be able to at least provide you with a blank Schedule doc, and some direction.

Assuming you have control of the Property Schedule doc for your Trust (and you are the Settlor or Grantor/Trustee), all you need to do is add the Firearm to the Schedule and BOOM, it's Trust Property! Does your Trust (or State) define and/or require anything otherwise to do so? Whomever did your Trust should be able to provide that info as well.

Regardless, your Trust should call out how/where/on what doc, etc the Trust Property is 'scheduled'. If you need a blank Schedule that will meet the ATF's requirements, email me and I will send you an blank form in word format. All you would need to do is add the correct header info and title (Name of your Trust, and name of the Schedule). Email in profile if needed

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Awesome. I can't find schedule anything on my NFA trust.

Fantastic time to go stumbling into this whole part of the firearms world.

IANAL, but regardless, you would be well advised to consult with the attorney that did your Trust on this. They should be able to at least provide you with a blank Schedule doc.

Assuming you have control of the Property Schedule doc for your Trust (and you are the Settlor or Grantor/Trustee), all you need to do is add the Firearm to the Schedule and BOOM, it's Trust Property! Does your Trust (or State) define and/or require anything otherwise to do so?

I got my trust from HeavyD. I just emailed him. I'm not sure he's working today, but hopefully I hear back. As for your last question, I found this about property, I'm still digging, but I think this is it:

"Settlor may transfer and assign additional property to the trust by attaching Assignment(s),
thereby any additions become Trust property."

There's a blank section about the assignment of property asking for "(Handwrite above, the Manufacturer, Model, Serial Number of the property you are adding)"

^^^I edited my previous post while you were typing. I will be away from my PC for about one hour. If I can be of help, I will.

Also, there are many here with a Trust from HeavyD, so hopefully someone knowledgeable can provide some direction. Maybe a new Thread requesting such guidance would be appropriate.