quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:...
I'm misquoting Elk? Really? Where did I even quote him, much less misquote him? Who should slow down and re-read?

No, you did not "quote" Elk, but you added your own fact, "They ORDERED a USN ship out of international waters?" that you piggybacked on Darthfuster's reply.

What Elk stated was that the U.S. (D.C.) ordered the Liberty out of the area and that the Liberty never received that order.

And unless you have ever been in such a situation as fast and as fluid as the Six Days War, you cannot realize the amount of traffic, and simultaneous "global" amount of information and the focus on a very tiny bit of information in the moment, you almost have to have a split brain to track in two, often opposing and conflicting streams if information, (and sometimes more than that). It is true multitasking, and you do not often have the luxury of pauses and rewinding or even the time to ask for clarity.

And shit happens.

That said, the Israeli's have done much soul searching and were and are troubled over the events.

But as I asked early, and always will, what did our government, agents and allies know in the "intel" world, when did they know it, and what could that have done or not done to have brought about a different result?

I have knowledge, but will not speak of it here, about similar incidents, so I know how and why these things happen (although I do not personally aprove of how they played out).

As far as the "$$$ spent" and the "abusive wife, attacks us and spends our money. ..." sort of comment and mindset that folks toss out, again, no idea what truely goes on.

I have worked with the IAF in weapons development and testing back in the 1980s, and with the development of the Conformal Fuel Tanks on the F-15 that became standard on the E models, ASPJ (Automatic Self Protection Jammer) programs, enhancement of the Patriot system and a great deal of tactics and doctrine in areas of air superiority and rapid "ownership" of airspace by defeating surface to air threats and immobilizing forces, as we have seen used since the late 1980s.

The relationship between the countries far outweighs the cost.

The USS Liberty was not a luxury cruise ship attacked by bloodthirsty pirates.

It was an intelligence gathering warship, engaged in clandestine operations in a hostile war zone, near an enemy and not in agreement or co-ordinated with an ally.

I do not give the Israeli's a pass, and unless we have all the facts, we do no service to our ally, who has since that time proved to be a very true and tried ally, and more so, an insult to the men who were lost and wounded, if in fact we pretend our government was not complicit in that incident.

Shame on us for trying to pretend that our hands don't stink.

And yes. I have a bias about such things, and will not make apology for it.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
The relationship between the countries far outweighs the cost.

The USS Liberty was not a luxury cruise ship attacked by bloodthirsty pirates.

It was an intelligence gathering warship, engaged in clandestine operations in a hostile war zone, near an enemy and not in agreement or co-ordinated with an ally.

I do not give the Israeli's a pass, and unless we have all the facts, we do no service to our ally, who has since that time proved to be a very true and tried ally, and more so, an insult to the men who were lost and wounded, if in fact we pretend our government was not complicit in that incident.

Shame on us for trying to pretend that our hands don't stink.

And yes. I have a bias about such things, and will not make apology for it.

I have something of a bias about this, too. The ship was clearly marked as the USS Liberty, flying a US flag. If the Israelis wanted to disable the signals intelligence capabilities of the ship, they could have done that without shooting our sailors as they tried to get into life rafts.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

Only when threatened by planes from the America and the Saratoga did the Israelis offer support. Too little, too late.

We should have sent all of the attacking forces to the bottom of the sea. With extreme prejudice.

Later we could have apologized, said it was all a mistake, and moved on. This did not happen, of course, because we were worried about our "relationship."

I've seen this topic come up on various gun forums over the years and it always turns into a shit show .

Considering Israel is surrounded by countries that are literally trying to kill it and they were engaged in 360 degree warfare I'll give them a pass.

Google USS Liberty yourself.
Mistaken identity? After repeated attacks the
"Holiday flag" was raised on the ship. Sailors told of seeing Israeli sailors on the torpedo boats laughing at them! They were that close.
Google this.
Stay safe.
Poli Viejo

Perhaps my perspective is cavalier. I don't know what it's like to fight a war or serve my country....to my everlasting regret. But I have been in a fight against multiple assailants. I would hate to mistake a friend for a foe or have to hurt a friend to defend myself and family but in a fight for life and limb, things happen and anyone close to the struggle is likely to get bloody. I don't hold Israel accountable for more than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
Google USS Liberty yourself.
Mistaken identity? After repeated attacks the
"Holiday flag" was raised on the ship. Sailors told of seeing Israeli sailors on the torpedo boats laughing at them! They were that close.
Google this.
Stay safe.
Poli Viejo

I have not and will not "defend" the "Mistaken identity" by the IAF aspect.

The attack was with intent against that target, the muddled "facts" and "true facts" hidden from disclosure are likely far more damning.

There are/were many on both sides who pushed chess pieces together, and when it was over, they both chose to cover up that damning bit and move on, leaving the future to deal with the outcome.

Anyone that does not realize and acknowledge that these things occur, are no less fools that the men that have covered their sins.

My entering into this was only because, as it is typically dragged out, it is one sided, colored narrative and disingenuous to the truth.

And that is more pissing on the memories of the men lost than anything else.

It is about being true to the truth.

Sigmonkey, given you regularly post some of the wisest things I read here, I meant no disrespect to you or your support of Israel. I understand there was more at play that day than we can discern many years later. I understand all Countries put their people at risk when it comes to intelligence. I even understand men at war do things in the heat of battle they regret later.

I just don't like it, and I mourn for our sailors who paid the price for everyone else's arrogance.

Why was it we cared about the Golan Heights if we chose to stay out of things while Israel was being piled on? Johnson and McNamara both failed our Country many times, in Vietnam, in the Middle East, and probably other places I'm not thinking of at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:...

I just don't like it, and I mourn for our sailors who paid the price for everyone else's arrogance. ...

Thank you.
No disrespect is taken.

I do not like it, not one bit. Because, I have read the accounts from both, and there are many on both sides who experienced horror up close and personal.

And that it be known, my anger lies with those that willing put things in motion, and could have changed things but did not, on both sides.

Have seen it up close and know that it happens, more than it should. And that the "responsible", can walk away and live with themselves, is beyond me.

And had US Naval pilots engaged and shot down IAF, I would accept that as the "normal" and "expected" response by them.

Well said, sigmonkey.