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The offense of treason and the US Constitution and case law. Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted
Okay, you’ve accused someone of committing the offense of treason. Do you know what constitutes that offense? I see the term thrown around a lot, but it’s obvious that most people who use it don’t know what it means in terms of US Supreme Court case law or even the Constitution itself. In short, treason requires waging actual war against the United States or giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I haven’t seen a precise definition of what “enemy” means, but I’d bet a nickel that if the Court had to decide, it would mean a representative of a power that we were at actual war with. I’d bet two nickels that it doesn’t mean a power that some of us don’t like or that might become an actual enemy in the future such as China or Russia.

There are no doubt many discussions and explanations of all that such as the instruction I was given when I first became an Army counterintelligence agent decades ago, but the link is a good one and I urge anyone who is tempted to accuse someone of “treason” under US law and is not just venting his frustration to take a few minutes to read it or something similar first. There are many despicable people doing despicable things these days, but like it or not, not many of them are committing treason.

https://constitutioncenter.org...ticle-iii/clauses/39




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44195 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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I think some folks were convicted for helping the Soviets.

Beijing should be able to meet the same standard if the prosecutor has any balls.
 
Posts: 4477 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Festina Lente
Picture of feersum dreadnaught
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Yes, venting. But I think it seems applicable to Milley.
"aid and comfort to the enemy" - if we were planning an attack, I believe that country would qualify as the "enemy"

According to a new book “Peril” written by Bob Woodward, Mark Milley, the Joint Chiefs chairman, told China in a secret phone call that he would give advance warning if the US was ever going to attack.

“In a pair of secret phone calls, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, assured his Chinese counterpart, Gen. Li Zuocheng of the PLA, that the U.S. would not strike, according to the new book written by Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward and national political editor Robert Costa.

One call took place on Oct 30, 2020, four days before the election that unseated President Trump, and the other on Jan. 8, 2021, two days after the Capitol siege carried out by his supporters in a quest to cancel the vote.

The first call was prompted by Milley’s review of intelligence suggesting the Chinese believed the United States was preparing to attack.

“General Li, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be okay,” Milley told him. “We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you.”

In the book’s account, Milley went so far as to pledge he would alert his counterpart in the event of a US attack, stressing the rapport they’d established through a backchannel. “General Li, you and I have known each other for now five years. If we’re going to attack, I’m going to call you ahead of time. It’s not going to be a surprise.”

https://www.thegatewaypundit.c...s-ever-going-attack/



NRA Life Member - "Fear God and Dreadnaught"
 
Posts: 8150 | Location: in the red zone of the blue state, CT | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
Picture of Gustofer
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From Wiki (yeah...I know). Looks as though some have been convicted for far less than what Milley has reportedly done.

quote:
Further information: Category:People convicted of treason against the United States

Philip Vigol and John Mitchell, convicted of treason and sentenced to hanging; pardoned by George Washington; see Whiskey Rebellion.

John Fries, the leader of Fries' Rebellion, convicted of treason in 1800 along with two accomplices, and pardoned that same year by John Adams.

In a case famous at the time, Aaron Burr was acquitted of treason, and then burned in effigy, in 1807. He voluntarily exiled himself to the United Kingdom for 5 years.

Governor Thomas Dorr 1844, convicted of treason against the state of Rhode Island; see Dorr Rebellion; released in 1845; civil rights restored in 1851; verdict annulled in 1854.

The abolitionist John Brown, convicted in 1859 of treason against the Commonwealth of Virginia, murder, and fomenting a slave insurrection for his part in the Harpers Ferry raid; executed. The first person executed for treason in the country's history.

Aaron Dwight Stevens, took part in John Brown's raid and was executed in 1860 for treason against Virginia.

William Bruce Mumford, convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War.

Mary Surratt, convicted of treason and hanged for conspiring in the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln in 1865.[13]

Walter Allen was convicted of treason on September 16, 1922 for taking part in the 1921 Miner's March with the coal companies and the US Army on Blair Mountain, West Virginia. He was sentenced to 10 years and fined. During his appeal to the Supreme Court he disappeared while out on bail.

United Mineworkers of America leader William Blizzard was acquitted of the charge of treason by the jury on May 25, 1922.[14]

Max Stephan, a German-born Detroit tavernkeeper, was convicted of treason on July 2, 1942, after the jury deliberated for only one hour and 23 minutes. In April 1942, Stephan harbored and fed at his tavern a Luftwaffe pilot who escaped from a Canadian POW camp.[15] On August 6, Judge Arthur J. Tuttle sentenced Stephan to death by hanging.[16] He was the first man convicted and sentenced to death on a federal treason charge since the Civil War. His sentence was later commuted by President Franklin D. Roosevelt to life in prison.[17]

Hans Max Haupt, Walter Otto Froehling and Otto Richard Wergin were convicted of treason and sentenced to death, and Erna Emma Haupt, Lucille Froehling and Kate Martha Wergin were convicted of treason and sentenced to 25 years in prison on November 24, 1942, in a joint indictment.[18] All six individuals were charged with treason for giving aid and comfort to the executed German saboteur Herbert Hans Haupt. On appeal, these judgments were reversed and remanded to be retried.[19] Hans Max Haupt was convicted again on June 9, 1944.[20] He was sentenced to life in prison. He appealed again, but the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed this judgement.[21] Walter Otto Froehling and Otto Richard Wergin were sentenced to 5 years in prison on July 22, 1944 as accessories to treason.[22] Hans Max Haupt eventually appealed the case up to the Supreme Court, which sustained the verdict against him.[23]

Martin James Monti, United States Army Air Forces pilot, convicted of treason for defecting to the Waffen-SS in 1944. He was paroled in 1960.

Max Otto Koischwitz, charged with treason for defecting to Nazi Germany during World War II in 1943, died of tuberculosis in 1944.

Edward Leo Delaney, charged with treason for defecting to Nazi Germany during World War II in 1943, charges were dropped in 1947.

Jane Anderson, American journalist indicted on charges of treason in 1943, defected to Nazi Germany in World War II, charges were dropped in 1947.

Frederick Wilhelm Kaltenbach, indicted for defecting to Germany during World War II as a broadcaster in 1943, died in Soviet custody
Douglas Chandler, worker for National Geographic, convicted of treason in 1947 for defecting to Germany during World War II, sentence commuted by president John F. Kennedy[13]

Robert Henry Best, convicted of treason on April 16, 1948 and served a life sentence.

Iva Toguri D'Aquino, who is frequently identified by the name "Tokyo Rose", convicted 1949. Subsequently, pardoned by President Gerald Ford.

Mildred Gillars, also known as "Axis Sally", convicted of treason on March 8, 1949; served 12 years of a 10- to 30-year prison sentence.

Herbert John Burgman, convicted of treason in 1949 during WWII for spreading Nazi propaganda; sentenced to 6–20 years in prison.

Tomoya Kawakita, sentenced to death for treason in 1952, but eventually released by President John F. Kennedy to be deported to Japan.


________________________________________________________

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 16737 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives
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While this is a fun mental exercise, since the entire accusation requires one to believe something written by Bob Woodward, I doubt it is not fabricated from whole cloth to sell books. Woodward has made alot of money telling tall tales of an unstable trump, and this is his last opportunity to cash in.

Given that, 18USC2381 is the offense of treason

quote:
§2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States


Seditious conspiracy is probably closer to Woodward latest story

quote:
Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
 
Posts: 2390 | Location: Texas | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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Sigfreund, what charge would you suggest to be appropriate if the facts are correct in what is being reported?

Scales of Justice



“We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,”
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Posts: 4684 | Location: Charlotte Area, NC | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:
Sigfreund, what charge would you suggest to be appropriate if the facts are correct in what is being reported?


Good question, but one I’m not qualified to answer.

As Harry Callahan pointed out, a man’s got to understand his limitations, and although I am still familiar with certain aspects of the law*, I don’t know about the allegations against Chairman Milley. What he reportedly did was so outrageous and unique in our history (as far as I know, and at least in recent times) that I’d be surprised if even experienced Federal prosecutors would know offhand what to charge him with. But see the comment by car541 regarding seditious conspiracy. He is much more attuned to such things than I am these days.

One thing I learned in my years as an Army CID agent was that prosecutors are good with the crimes they see all the time, but if it’s something rare and unusual it takes them a while to figure out how to proceed. If for no other reason they don’t want to take something to court and have it dismissed because a judge believes it’s not applicable and valid. The myriad criminal statutes in the US Code make it possible to charge almost anyone in public life with something, and I would think that an article or three of the UCMJ would apply, but it’s been a long time since I was even involved with the latter and therefore I hesitate to just shoot from the hip with an opinion.

And unfortunately I strongly doubt that even if the allegations against Milley are true that anything will come of them. We have seen much more obvious crimes committed by high level public figures lead to nothing in recent years, even with President Trump in office, so I have no greater expectations this time.

* For some reason the treason thing has really stuck with me over the years.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44195 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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Walker Family was convicted of espionage.

If Milley did what was reported, he is guilty of treason. He should be tried and convicted of that charge and sentenced to death.
 
Posts: 6441 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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I have always thought the actions of the Leftist Progressives, Democrats, ANTIFA, BLM, et. al., after President Donald J. Trump took office and all actions taken directly against him constituted SEDITION rather than Treason. However, a savvy attorney could possibly make the case that the weapons and cash that Sleepy Joe has given to the Taliban in the past month COULD be argued as "aiding and providing comfort to our enemies".

IANAL, so all JMHO...



"If you’re a leader, you lead the way. Not just on the easy ones; you take the tough ones too…” – MAJ Richard D. Winters (1918-2011), E Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil... Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel." - Isaiah 5:20,24
 
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always with a hat or sunscreen
Picture of bald1
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The Washington Post slime merchants (Woodward et al) are being given way too much credibility here. Yes Milley appears to be a careerist weasel but treasonist? Given the sources and the MSM fanning the flames, one has to factor their past practices and leftwing agenda. This smells bogus big time.



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Posts: 13214 | Location: Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: June 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That list has a lot of pardons in it.
Joe would pardon him should he be found guilty. To close to the inner circle.



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Posts: 3508 | Location: Sparta, NJ USA | Registered: August 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Back, and
to the left
Picture of 83v45magna
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
We have seen much more obvious crimes committed by high level public figures lead to nothing in recent years, even with President Trump in office, so I have no greater expectations this time.
Even if charges were brought and a conviction obtained, who here wouldn't expect to see Biden just pardon him?



I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. -Ecclesiastes 9:11
 
Posts: 5969 | Location: Dallas | Registered: August 04, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
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I prefer to throw the word “traitor” around far more often than treason. It certainly fits what the leftist trash is doing in this republic.




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Posts: 12812 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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quote:
Originally posted by ulsterman:
Walker Family was convicted of espionage.

If Milley did what was reported, he is guilty of treason. He should be tried and convicted of that charge and sentenced to death.

You only say that because you don’t understand that Orange Man bad. Given the current administration, Lame Stream Media, Social Media, etc I’d be less surprised if he were given a medal for his actions against Trump, the Constitution, and the American people. We can always hope though.
 
Posts: 5765 | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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quote:
If Milley did what was reported, he is guilty of treason. He should be tried and convicted of that charge and sentenced to death.


Washington would have already hung him.
 
Posts: 10101 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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if milley was brought up on charges there would be a 15 min blackout on his holding cell and be found hanging by his bed sheets when they came back on




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Posts: 1166 | Location: New Hampshire "Live Free or Die"  | Registered: September 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:
Sigfreund, what charge would you suggest to be appropriate if the facts are correct in what is being reported?


It occurred to me: Article 94, Uniform Code of Military Justice.
(I am not sure, based on what was alleged about Chairman Milley’s action, that he actually committed the offense described, but I believe he could be charged with conspiracy to commit the offense (Article 81), or at least an attempt to commit the offense (Article 80). Were I the prosecutor I would charge the primary offense.)
------------

10 U.S. Code § 894 - Art. 94. Mutiny or sedition

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;

(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;

(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.

(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44195 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Speling Champ
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quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
If Milley did what was reported, he is guilty of treason. He should be tried and convicted of that charge and sentenced to death.


Washington would have already hung him.


Washington would have already raised an army and started shooting at our current .Gov a long, long time ago. Big Grin
 
Posts: 1459 | Location: Utah | Registered: July 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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