I have never owned or used body armor so this discussion is fascinating to me. The picture of the dead BG with bullets just stuck in his vest seemed odd to my eye, it’s what I envisioned Hollywood would think it would look like. And yet that is exactly what it looked like. Subsonic 300 BO makes that make more sense to my mind.

That’s a lot of malfunctions. I have to think they are going to rethink some stuff. Only AR malfunction I have ever had was when using Russian Steel. I love cheap ammo so I have seen many malfunctions. Lol. (I use good stuff for real use).

I would love to know why they went 300 BO. Seems like a no brainer to stick with regular old 5.56.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I would love to know why they went 300 BO.

I have long been convinced that people, including the individuals who make the decisions for agencies, very often make those decisions based on fads and what can only be called the “romance” associated with certain firearms and cartridges.

For a time a number of years ago, “special” organizations had to have 1911-style pistols chambered for 45 ACP long after the guns had generally fallen out of favor by serious users. Are those guns and ammunition okay, yes, but have there been better choices for both for a very long time? Obviously, but what was best wasn’t what drove the decisions.

Some time ago it was reported that the DHS had decided to switch to the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge for its precision rifles. Is the 6.5 a good round for certain purposes? Yes, I have had two rifles chambered for it myself, and it is better for very long range shooting than what it (evidently) replaced, in that case the 308 Winchester. But is it better than the 308 for most practical law enforcement purposes? No, and is actually inferior in some regards. But it’s the latest hotness and I can well imagine that its “hotness” factor was what led to the DHS decision.

We see the same sort of thing in discussions among shooters in general. An SBR with a good suppressor and shooting subsonic 300 Blackout ammunition is great for impressing oneself—and, more important, the other guys at the range—and therefore that combination enjoys a lot of popularity these days for that reason. Yes, it’s also supported by the, “Oh, I don’t want to hurt my ears if I must ever defend myself in the [extraordinarily unlikely] event of a home invasion,” but what’s the real reason for its initial choice?

The people who make or at least have the primary influence over firearms and ammunition choices in LE agencies very often don’t really know as much about weapons and ammunition as they believe they do. If something attracts their attention, however, they usually have no problem explaining to the bean counters and other decision-makers who are even more ignorant than they why their personal choice is best.

During my LE firearms instructor training course we were required to prepare a justification for why an agency should adopt a particular handgun. I had no choice in the matter and was assigned the requirement to support the adoption of a 1911 pistol—something I have never had any respect for in my entire life. But I was familiar with all the arguments in its favor and by ignoring all the reasons why it was a bad idea, my presentation was a (seemingly) credible justification for that choice.

If that agency really does issue carbines chambered for the 300 Blackout cartridge and use subsonic ammunition, I have little doubt as to why, and it wasn’t because that combination was the best for the purpose.

The agency may believe that 300 BO has less penetration than 5.56 and may be safer to use in an urban environment.
The bad guys vest may have proved the theory!

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
The agency may believe that 300 BO has less penetration than 5.56 ....

That is certainly possible as well. If so, it would be interesting to know if the agency actually researched the question. Heavy bullets that are going too slowly to break up easily in building materials or other media generally penetrate and ricochet pretty well.

YouTube has many videos showing penetration tests of various materials by different cartridges, and although most are very poorly done, one thing that’s clear is that all cartridges the least bit suitable for serious purposes are capable of a lot of penetration.

I figure most PD’s would be well armed with Glocks, a basic AR, and an 870. Not very sexy but it probably would work out just fine. Disclaimer: no one has ever asked me to procure or arm any agency of any size. Lol

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I figure most PD’s would be well armed with Glocks, a basic AR, and an 870. Not very sexy but it probably would work out just fine. Disclaimer: no one has ever asked me to procure or arm any agency of any size. Lol

Doubtful that the “agency” is armed up this way. They seem to be a specialized unit, maybe trained up a step under SWAT. Patrol guys and regular detectives likely have regular ARs and Glocks.

If I was guessing.

Seems like Detective 3 might have gotten the most clear shots at the perp but everyone of his rounds, seen at 6:10, go through the quarter panel of the vehicle. I would assume that decreased velocity and penetration by a good bit.

My one big question is had the kidnapped victim not run away on his own, would he still be alive right now?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Doubtful that the “agency” is armed up this way. They seem to be a specialized unit, maybe trained up a step under SWAT.

They're all members of the "Special Assignments Unit", which apparently is a specialized subunit of Scottsdale PD SWAT. So perhaps trained up a step over SWAT.

"Special Assignments Unit (SAU)
The SAU is staffed with one sergeant and six detectives. Its mission is to assist other units in the
department, primarily in tracking violent fugitives. SAU also conducts more sophisticated
operations, including surveillances, nontraditional techniques to capture violent fugitives, conduct
rescue missions, provide patrol support, dignitary protection, serving search warrants, etc. SAU
also serves as administrative support for SWAT, since SWAT is a decentralized operation. SAU
handles SWAT’s weapons, armor, armor vehicles, SWAT testing, and SWAT school, The SAU also
handles special operations at the request of the Chief’s Office.


Interesting to note that these are the ones who handle guns and training for the entire SWAT team. So you can bet that they're taking a long, hard look at just what went wrong with their rifles/ammo.

I've been a fan of 300 Blackout since early 300 Whisper days and an SSK / JD Jones custom upper in the '80's.

Getting the heavy subsonic rounds to work reliably can take a fair amount of testing of magazines / buffers / etc.

I think 300 Blk offers some real advantages for closer range defensive work -- but none that are worth it if you are trading off reliability.

City of Mesa has crazy realtime monitoring capabilities in the PD. Hundreds of cameras all over. On par with Las Vegas Metro.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Orndorff:
Lots of discussion on this incident elsewhere, to include enhanced pics suggesting the rifles were chambered in 300 Blackout and the ammo being used was heavy subs.

Very interesting indeed if true.

The video above claims that there are bullets imbedded in the BG’s armor. I thought that was strange if, as I assumed, that the officers’ rifles were chambered for 223/5.56, but perhaps not so strange if they were shooting subsonic 300 Blackout ammunition. I tried to find some online tests of subsonic 300 BLK against soft armor without very much success. One showed a subsonic FMJ load perforating a vest in a somewhat marginally valid test, but the vest was rated at level II, not the far more common IIIA for soft armor.

In the same test the vest did stop a subsonic shot with a fragmenting bullet. In evaluating the ability of an FMJ load to perforate soft armor we must remember that with bullets of certain designs and materials, even the 9mm Parabellum is capable of perforating soft armor.
And lest someone offer the defense of the cartridge with, “Yeah, but it did penetrate the armor,” keep in mind as well that simply punching a nonexpanding .30 caliber hole through the armor and what’s behind it isn’t the only criterion we should be looking at in selecting a defensive load.

I don’t know if I’ll get around to conducting a test of my own, but if the information becomes well known that both the terminal ballistic and functioning failures were with subsonic 300 Blackout loads, perhaps it will start building a (well-deserved) coffin for that ammunition.

I too made a comment (to myself but out-loud) when they showed the bullets imbedded in the vest... I assumed the reported had it wrong but then quickly realized it wasn't a reporter, but the PD themselves. I then wondered what that meant...

If .300blk doesn't reliably penetrate common body armor it should not be the round we, as law enforcement, are using.

So my take away is,
Even with body armor and auto guns,
Neither or both are the answers to all the gun fight questions.

quote:

if .300blk doesn't reliably penetrate common body armor it should not be the round we, as law enforcement, are using.

But the people who know those things are not the people who make decisions.

Every department has five or ten real gun guys, who should write the policy and forward it up, sometimes they do and the policy signer refuses. Because reasons.

My department would not let you use a 1911 because it was single action (and has a “light” trigger). When I talked to the head FAI (in 99), he said that the chief shot one and said it was too light, so the department went to the P226 when it was moving from revolvers to semi-autos in the mid 90s. That mantra was carried on thru three chiefs while I was there. The current chief was my sergeant when I got hired. I have seen him buy a model 1911 that was used in the Olympics or marketed as such, and even he refused to allow them. He has let guys and gals grow a beard due to being so behind on hiring, but no single action pistols-even considering the striker fired guns to be single action-even though some are proven not to be.

So some new fangled cartridge comes out and the guy has the ear of the Chief and viola. When we wanted ARs we had to drag the Chief out to the range and show him a .223 wouldn’t go thru two milk jugs filled with water due to the round breaking up. He had been convinced since it was a “military” round he wasn’t having any of it. That exposure allowed us to begin carrying our personally owned carbines for our safety.

quote:

Originally posted by xmod:
City of Mesa has crazy realtime monitoring capabilities in the PD. Hundreds of cameras all over. On par with Las Vegas Metro.

No shit? That's kind of encouraging.

The one time I've had to call them so far, response was immediate. I mean, five minutes, tops. I was impressed.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

if .300blk doesn't reliably penetrate common body armor it should not be the round we, as law enforcement, are using.

But the people who know those things are not the people who make decisions.

Every department has five or ten real gun guys, who should write the policy and forward it up, sometimes they do and the policy signer refuses. Because reasons.

You're 100% spot on. I'm one of the more senior FAI at my department and I'm forwarding the link and some thoughts on it to the LT in charge of our firearms policy and training. The Sheriff makes decisions, but he heavily leans on his chain of command and SME's. These are valid lessons for both law enforcement and Joe Citizen who wants to protect himself and his loved ones.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Orndorff:
Lots of discussion on this incident elsewhere, to include enhanced pics suggesting the rifles were chambered in 300 Blackout and the ammo being used was heavy subs.

Very interesting indeed if true.

The video above claims that there are bullets imbedded in the BG’s armor. I thought that was strange if, as I assumed, that the officers’ rifles were chambered for 223/5.56, but perhaps not so strange if they were shooting subsonic 300 Blackout ammunition. I tried to find some online tests of subsonic 300 BLK against soft armor without very much success. One showed a subsonic FMJ load perforating a vest in a somewhat marginally valid test, but the vest was rated at level II, not the far more common IIIA for soft armor.

In the same test the vest did stop a subsonic shot with a fragmenting bullet. In evaluating the ability of an FMJ load to perforate soft armor we must remember that with bullets of certain designs and materials, even the 9mm Parabellum is capable of perforating soft armor.
And lest someone offer the defense of the cartridge with, “Yeah, but it did penetrate the armor,” keep in mind as well that simply punching a nonexpanding .30 caliber hole through the armor and what’s behind it isn’t the only criterion we should be looking at in selecting a defensive load.

I don’t know if I’ll get around to conducting a test of my own, but if the information becomes well known that both the terminal ballistic and functioning failures were with subsonic 300 Blackout loads, perhaps it will start building a (well-deserved) coffin for that ammunition.

I too made a comment (to myself but out-loud) when they showed the bullets imbedded in the vest... I assumed the reported had it wrong but then quickly realized it wasn't a reporter, but the PD themselves. I then wondered what that meant...

If .300blk doesn't reliably penetrate common body armor it should not be the round we, as law enforcement, are using.

Most departments are using "tactical urban rounds" for 556 rifles......with a similar result to what we saw with 300 blackout in this incident, it won't penetrate class III body armor. Departments are not afraid of stopping bad people in body armor, they are terrified of over penetration and hitting a bystander.

Yep, most firearm decisions are made by non-firearm knowledgeable officers and command staff.

Sure would be interesting to know the back story... who the guy was taken hostage.... and how and why that whole special team were able to even find and box in the vehicle.... and they sure were well prepared to take on the nut job in it. I get the feeling they knew what they were showing up for.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
Most departments are using "tactical urban rounds" for 556 rifles ....

You’ve piqued my interest with several questions.
What do you mean by “most departments”? In only a certain area that you’re familiar with, or across the country? If the latter, how do you know that? Is there centrally-available information about that sort of thing?

By “tactical urban” are you referring to Hornady’s line of urban TAP?

If so, now I’m curious about the armor you mentioned. The most common (I believe) soft body armor is level IIIA; are you saying that the ammunition you mentioned won’t penetrate that? (I found one Internet post that claimed the Hornady 55 grain Urban TAP was effective against soft armor.)

Or are you truly referring to level III armor? Level III armor is rated by the NIJ to stop 223 Remington lead core ammunition, and that would include many types of bullets that are intended to expand in flesh, and not only something like the Urban TAP loads that are specifically intended for less penetration. According to the Internet, FMJ M193 ammunition will also defeat (some? all?) level III hard plates, but although it also has a lead core its velocity and FMJ construction give it more penetrating power than most lead core bullets.

I’m also curious why anyone would be specifically concerned about penetrating level III armor. It’s a hard plate style, and how much more common is it than level IV? When I first decided to purchase hard armor, I didn’t even stop to think about anything other than level IV, but now I see that various manufacturers offer something labeled as III+, which is, I believe, specifically intended to be effective against all 223/5.56 loads, but not the really powerful AP stuff.

Are police departments/sheriffs offices really putting 300BO subtonics in the field?
Maybe I'm the only one, but trading supers/subs through a 300BO weapon/suppressor isnt always the easiest process. sometimes better to pick one.

and yep...looks like Hornady has an LE/Mil Subsonic 300BO round.
https://www.hornadyle.com/rifl.../190-gr-sub-x-tap#!/

That Hornady round is close in performance to some 40S&W loads.