Skins2881

The metal in the walls probably would be a problem for an inside antenna. Since you already have the coax run to the attic, from the old antenna, and your primary stations of interest are all in green and w/in ±1°, something like that ANT751/ANT752 would probably work fine.

For the other stations: When you say "not on the same [bearing]," what are we talking about?

Without knowing the exact polars of the ANT75x, I'm assuming its pattern has the largest lobe to the front; a fatter, shorter lobe to the rear; and even shorter, more narrow lobes, four of them, at 45° off-axis, to both front and rear. (See below.) So maybe. Maybe not.

HRK

You don't get something for nothing in antennas. Antennas achieve gain by being directional.

A simple dipole antenna, which is just two radiators on the same axis, has its main lobes at 90°, front and back, at right angles to the axis of the elements.

Like this:



When you create a yagi (my photo, above, is of a yagi antenna with a corner reflector for the UHF elements), you start extending and narrowing the lobes on the axis of the boom, shrinking the back lobe, and creating little side lobes at various degrees to the sides.

Something like this:



So, whether a more omni-directional antenna would work for you or not one cannot say without seeing your TV Fool report.

I highlighted the ones I would want in the report.

They are all in the same direction and all exact same distance from me. Correction 4* spread 99*-103*.

I would also like to add on this topic, when I recently decided to cut the cord and did my digging and searching the old "cord cutter's thread" based on the many pages of useful info I made my choices of equipment. One of those such recommendations from ensigmatic, I thankfully looked into OTA DVR's. This suggestion, and might be for other's considering going OTA was a Godsend. Luckily for me I was a Direct TV subscriber and had the existing satellite dish mount on my roof. So it was as easy as removing the old dish and sliding the new OTA antenna onto the existing post mount and screwing the coax cable into the new antenna.

Regardless of your choice of indoor or outdoor OTA, I found that the purchase of an OTA DVR was a fantastic addition. It's such a small device at approx maybe 5x5x1-1/2". Install is so easy, just plug in the antenna coax, go to their webpage on your computer, put in serial number, search for your wifi, enter wifi passcode and connect. Done, the only cord used is the a/c to plug in the power to the DVR. The benefits are immeasurable, from viewing live local broadcasts or recording all your broadcast. And thats where the DVR shines, the DVR I purchased and I'm sure many others have an commercial auto-skip feature that works like a charm, especially since locals are sometimes inundated with them, and this feature allows the broadcast to jump over the commercials in a blink of the eye and content resumes. Highly recommended if you decided to go OTA for locals.

As an aside, since like HRK, I also live in Florida, when my OTA was first plugged in with the coax, I found that since the terrain here is so flat and city building's free, I didn't even need the included power amplifier that came with the antenna, and picked up 47 crystal clear local broadcasts up to 70mi!

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So, whether a more omni-directional antenna would work for you or not one cannot say without seeing your TV Fool report.

Here ya go!

https://www.amazon.com/Element...ps%2C146&sr=8-5&th=1

I mounted this one in my attic (the 8 element one), but pointed one panel in one direction, and the other panel at another antenna that was almost 90 degrees away. Used existing cable to run signal back down to the cable input at the house entrance, and back to the rest of the tvs from there. Worked perfectly, even pick up channels from Charlotte on good days. With all yours close and in the same direction, the 2 or 4 element one should work.

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Originally posted by Skins2881:
I highlighted the ones I would want in the report.

Ohboy. I think the ANT75x should do it for you.

What gives me pause is they're mostly 2edge path stations. That means there are hills (probably) between you and them that causes diffraction. The noise margins and power numbers are not encouraging.

Then again: Right now I'm looking at our channel 18: RF channel 22, NM: 27dB, Pwr: -64dBm, 2edge path. I'm seeing 87% signal strength, 100% signal and symbol quality off the rooftop antenna. Solid as a rock. <checks...> Heck, I'm even getting it solidly using the FlatWave Amped antenna on the wall, just above the TV. (Correction: Very occasional, very mild breakup on the flat antenna.) It's currently blowing like stink out there and snowing (snowing?!?!) to beat the band.

I think you'll be good, but I'm afraid the only way you'll know is to try it.

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
https://www.amazon.com/Element...ps%2C146&sr=8-5&th=1

You'll note that's a UHF-only antenna. In the repack a number of stations that were on UHF have moved down into the VHF-High band. Any station that's not real close is not going to be "seen" by that antenna.

N.B.: TV Fool is currently sometimes (?) wildly inaccurate as to TV station real frequencies and power levels. Apparently they have not been updating their data to reflect changes due to the repack.

For more challenging installations, where you want to get stations on greatly differing bearings, you can also go with something like this: EZ HD Bi - Directional TV Antenna System

You can accomplish the same with a pair of ANT75x antennas and an antenna combiner. (No, a splitter in reverse is not the same as a combiner, though it may work.)

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I highlighted the ones I would want in the report.

Ohboy. I think the ANT75x should do it for you.

What gives me pause is they're mostly 2edge path stations. That means there are hills (probably) between you and them that causes diffraction. The noise margins and power numbers are not encouraging.

Then again: Right now I'm looking at our channel 18: RF channel 22, NM: 27dB, Pwr: -64dBm, 2edge path. I'm seeing 87% signal strength, 100% signal and symbol quality off the rooftop antenna. Solid as a rock. <checks...> Heck, I'm even getting it solidly using the FlatWave Amped antenna on the wall, just above the TV. It's currently blowing like stink out there and snowing (snowing?!?!) to beat the band.

I think you'll be good, but I'm afraid the only way you'll know is to try it.

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
https://www.amazon.com/Element...ps%2C146&sr=8-5&th=1

You'll note that's a UHF-only antenna. In the repack a number of stations that were on UHF have moved down into the VHF-High band. Any station that's not real close is not going to be "seen" by that antenna.

N.B.: TV Fool is currently sometimes (?) wildly inaccurate as to TV station real frequencies and power levels. Apparently they have not been updating their data to reflect changes due to the repack.

Checking Topo map. DC is 10-90' above sea level, I am 300', and the highest points between are ~400' with one tiny hill at 450' which I am not even sure if that on at 450' is directly in the line of sight.

What is the difference in the last number of the linked RCA antenna?

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Checking Topo map. DC is 10-90' above sea level, I am 300', and the highest points between are ~400' with one tiny hill at 450' which I am not even sure if that on at 450' is directly in the line of sight.

Those would be your edges, then.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
What is the difference in the last number of the linked RCA antenna?

Not certain. Somebody on AVSForum said the "2" had a UHF reflector, which would increase gain and directionality on UHF. But HD's product photo shows the same thing as a "1".

HRK

Almost missed your follow-up post.

For all those stations at ±118° the ANT75x will probably do you. You might even catch the two more-or-less off the back-side and maybe the two at 170°.

In fact: I'd try the antenna at about 140° and see what happens. That would split the difference between the 118° and 170° bearings and put the 340° stations more directly off the back-side of the antenna.

The others that are in yellow and off the sides are more doubtful.

Heck, your numbers are good enough you can probably do it with a FlatWave Amped antenna stuck to a wall.

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Those would be your edges, then.

Antenna 101:

What's an edge?

Does that minor little variance in height matter that much?

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Heck, your numbers are good enough you can probably do it with a FlatWave Amped antenna stuck to a wall.

Thanks, good to know,

Now for the HDTV/4K issue, are the signals we get capable of HD 1080 format, or even 4K, if so would it make sense to get an antenna advertised as capable or some adapter to the model you suggest.

Since all but one of our TV's are 4K/1080 rated might as well get that capability if it exists.

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Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Those would be your edges, then.

Antenna 101:

What's an edge?

Just what it sounds like: The edge of something between source and destination. Nearly always a terrain feature (hills, mountains).

What you receive then is not a line of sight (LOS) signal, but a signal from diffraction over or around the edge. That diffraction results in increased path loss.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Does that minor little variance in height matter that much?

It does. Consider: While those edges are only 100-150 ft. above you, they're 400-450 ft. above the transmitting stations' locations.

If the transmitting stations were at your elevation there probably would be no edge loss, as their tower height would probably overcome it.

Still: I think you'll be fine.

Last question, I promise, thank you for spending the time. *If* it was an issue I could just throw an amplifier in line right?

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Originally posted by HRK:
Thanks, good to know,

You're welcome

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Now for the HDTV/4K issue, are the signals we get capable of HD 1080 format, or even 4K,

You notice all those sub-channels you see these days? That's the station's available digital bandwidth being split up. Truth is: Few US DTV stations are transmitting even at 1080i, now. Most are 720P or less .

Out of the 65 channels our HDHR network tuner sees, I believe only two of them are 1080i.

The current version of ATSC (that's the current digital broadcast standard in the U.S.) does not support greater than 1080i. ATSC 3.0 will, but that's a whole 'nother discussion and won't be a concern for several years.

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Originally posted by HRK:
if so would it make sense to get an antenna advertised as capable or some adapter to the model you suggest.

Disregard all that "digital," "DTV," "HD," etc. stuff you see attached to antenna descriptions. It's marketing cruft that has no bearing on anything. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

Now, when digital first happened, all the stations that were on VHF-Low, and many that were in VHF-High, moved to UHF. That meant that antennas with elements long enough to efficiently receive VHF-Low were no longer necessary, and for VHF-High only infrequently--if at all. So all-of-a-sudden here's a market for high-performance UHF-only antennas. Yeah: "Digital" antennas.

As I posted in an earlier follow-up to Skins: "Digital smigital." Your TV's tuner neither knows nor cares what kind of antenna's connected to it. It just needs to see enough signal, at good enough signal quality, to be able to extract the digital stream from it. You could use a coat hanger, literally, a coat hanger, and watch 1080i OTA TV.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Last question, I promise, thank you for spending the time. *If* it was an issue I could just throw an amplifier in line right?

You're welcome. Happy to help.

Welll... I can give you a firm "maybe"

One problem with edge loss is the resulting signal is... "noisier," due to the scattering effect, than a LOS signal. Take a flashlight and aim it at a wall. Now put that light behind an edge so all that gets past it is light diffracted over the edge and look at the wall. Kind of like that

So maybe yes, maybe no. I don't think you'll need it, though.

Found an excellent image illustrating RF diffraction due to a tree.

OK, so I think if I do it, I'll get a unit to go in the attic or on the side of the house by the old cable wire system to tap into it.

Probably in the attic and wire to the interior cable so we can connect all tv's to the source vs having multiple tiny wall sticker antennas.

Right now I installed an unused FireTV stick, it allows me to get to several local stations at least for news and weather and FOX News etc.

Borrowing a room Antenna from my Daughter she's not using to see what reception is like for local channels.

Anyone with the ANT751 from RCA did it come with the adapter to go from RG6 to the antenna connections or did you have to buy that separate?

Edit, just re-read install directions, not included. They call the part a transformer.

That seems unlikely in this day-and-age. Nobody uses twin-lead any more.

I just looked up the ANT751x and ANT752x antennas on RCA's site. All four of the former and both of the latter say "Includes ... 75ohm matching transformer."

751x antennas: https://www.rcaantennas.net/search/?ks=ANT751
752x antennas: https://www.rcaantennas.net/search/?ks=ANT752

For the life of me I can see no difference between the six products, but I didn't read the individual product descriptions thoroughly.

Amazon says includes, install instructions are probably dated.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
That seems unlikely in this day-and-age. Nobody uses twin-lead any more.

Because at UHF it really sucks, in particular when wet or placed near gutters and things.

Stuck a small local antenna on the Patio TV, since we'd robbed the DTV box (wireless) for the wifes office TV.

Picked up 55 plus channels, lots of digital, some very good images, some such as Fox35 look good for a bit but then pixelate, pause, then restart, many in a language that I don't habla....

Looks promising so just need to figure out what antenna to buy to put in the attic and wire into the whole house.

In the meantime popped on a spare Amazon Fire, and found apps for the local stations at least news, weather etc. Fox National, etc I have to validate that we are a DTV customer, but for the short term it works.

Looking more and more like cord cutting to some extent will be the future here as we ride out the end of the DTV agreement..

Sounds promising, HRK

How high was your test antenna? One trick you might try, that folks use to test surveillance camera install locations, is stick a 2x4 in a bucket of rocks with an antenna atop that. You should easily be able to try that with one of those ANT75x', which you should be able to pick up at a local HD.

On your permanent installation, I'd recommend going to the added expense and trouble of using good coax. See: Home TV Antenna (Free Signal) Question/Help Please for discussion on that and connectorization.

Do it once, do it right