quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
You're probably best going with 2 units. 1 for upstairs and one downstairs. I have a heat pump and it's great. But don't know if it's best for your situation.

I'll second jimmy's recommendation of going with two smaller units. I had that in a home I had built and the temperature from basement to second floor was always even. Basically in AC season the second floor unit ran more and in heating season the basement unit ran more. If one would happen to break (neither did over the 10 years we were there) you won't be totally w/o AC or heat either. You'll save a little on duct work but pay more for equipment, however the equipment should last a little longer.

Having two homes now, one with a traditional HE gas furnace with AC and the other with a heat pump, and with natural gas as cheap as it is now, I prefer and would go with gas furnaces if I were doing it now.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
So as a installing dealer you do not give your customer any additional operational information for a HP than you give the customer who you sold and electric furnace or air handler? Just adjust the T-stat and your are golden. Ok, sounds good.

It is just simply my opinion that when comparing a HP to an AC condensing unit. One is more prone to issues vs the other. By a bunch. I understand it is a better and more profitable sale and service to sell them on the HP. I am not saying they are terrible. Of the two my choice is easy though.

How the hell is operator error a factor in heat pump issues? You change the thermostat temperature doesn't effect it. About the only thing that might is if you switch it from cooling while it is running, to heat instantly without waiting a minute or two for the line pressures to equalize. The new ones will wait a minute or two before switching over. BUT, if you're going from a/c to heat, chances are it's so darn cold out that the compressor isn't running anyways.

I agree Heat Pumps aren't worth doing if your outside temps drop below 45F routinely. But I believe where the OP is (Seattle) the winters are very mild and never get down to below 45F hardly ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
A Heat Pump will save you money, as they transfer heat vs. burning a fuel to create/produce heat.

A/C absorbs heat and transfers it outside.
Heat Pump absorbs heat and transfers it indoors.

Just has a few extra components to make it work in the opposite direction.

That is true, but heat pumps do not work efficiently when outdoor temperatures drop below about 30 degrees.

Efficiency and capacity is two different things. That's why you either back-up the heat pump with electric strip heat or switch over to a gas fired furnace (dual fuel).

Do you happen to know what COP is and how the outside temperature effects it?

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Yep, yep and yep. ;

Nice way to deflect a direct question about your own 'inaccurate' statement.

Unless you now agree and want to retract it?

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Heat pumps don't really work all that well as a standalone heat source here in the Northeast US (I'm in PA) so I'd think it would be the same for the Northwest of the US as well?

My Dad did HVAC all his life and was never a heat pump fan and told me they were ideal for the South region of the US, but the winters are just too cold in the NE for them to be feasible as an only heat source. Maybe that has changed though with more efficiency and improvements in technology?

Yes, technology has changed and HP's are no longer just an item for the Southern states.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
A Heat Pump will save you money, as they transfer heat vs. burning a fuel to create/produce heat.

A/C absorbs heat and transfers it outside.
Heat Pump absorbs heat and transfers it indoors.

Just has a few extra components to make it work in the opposite direction.

Bingo!
Depending on the winter temps which I suspect are pretty mild you probably can do everything with a heat pump.
Here in the Mountains of Virginia we piggy back gas furnace onto a heat pump for those times when it gets below about 30 or so.

Jimmey123, relax brother. Excam man, repeating yourself incessently is not overly flattering.


HP's, some love them. Some don't. Dealers love to sell them. If you sell enough of them you may even get a nice vacation on the manufacturer

I never said they are not a viable product. The op was looking for opinions on them. I gave mine compared to a system I prefer. I also gave additional info based on my experiences. Sorry a couple of you took issue. Maybe loosen your tool belt's.

Again, I hope the op get's a good system. Whatever he decides on.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: old rugged cross,

I live in a 1300 sq foot ranch and had to replace my A/C.

I had a 1.5 ton unit, and went to a 2 ton unit.

I switched from a Sears furnace & A/C that was installed in 1978 when the house was built to a Lennox furnace/heat pump.

I live on the east side of Oregon where we do have cold. The unit sometimes has to be set to emergency heat in the winter, but all in all the system is efficient.

My house is able to stay at or below 70 degrees in the summer when it is triple digits outside with this unit (without an A/C or heat pump there in no chance of keeping this house below 95 degrees as was proven when the A/C went out).

In the winter the unit is easily able to keep the house at 70-75 degrees.

It is my understanding that heat pumps are best for more moderate climates and do not do well in climates that are crazy hot or super cold. At least, that is what one of my physics professors taught a great number of years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by fizteach:
It is my understanding that heat pumps are best for more moderate climates and do not do well in climates that are crazy hot or super cold. At least, that is what one of my physics professors taught a great number of years ago.

Crazy hot is not a problem, I live in South Florida and they work great. They work just as well as a regular A/C. Crazy cold is where they don't or didn't do well at all, such as if outside temps were below 45F.

EXCAMMAN who is in the business says the new heat pumps work just as well in really cold climates.....I don't know as I live in Florida and 45F is extremely rare here. Usually not below 50's ever.

Live close to you. Started with gas furnace, the added a heat pump and AC. we don't regret it. One thing I did learn was that the air exchange in the house was lousy. We cut another vent to get better flow.
The only problem I've had with the HP was when it blew a fuse.a mouse had gotten into th unit then fried itself across the contacts.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Excam man, repeating yourself incessently is not overly flattering.

I never said they are not a viable product.

Neither is posting inaccurate information and then sidestepping the question when you get called on it.
You stated:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

If you go HP educate yourself on how to operate them and follow that. If you don't you will be prone to big repair bill's and often.

And I asked you to back-up your misguided information with facts. You can't back up the statement with facts, because they don't exist and you can't simply admit that you posted inaccurate information regarding HP's (or any HVAC equipment for that matter).

I love it when people make a wild ass INACCURATE comments on something they shouldn't and then can't/won't back it up with facts. If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, why post it?

This is why the HVAC/R industry is where it's at. Cause there's people in the business spreading inaccurate information all the damn time.

You said you sold heat pumps at a distributor and process warranty claims, YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!!

The climate in Western Washington is reportedly well suited for efficient heat pump operation. And Washington has the lowest average electricity rate in the nation. (Yes, something is actually relatively inexpensive in Washington!)

Here is annual climate for that dreaded Seattle:



Perhaps someone who knows more about heat pump efficiency than me can comment about the accuracy of what I was told about those being good temperatures for efficient heat pump operation. I think that they are since it doesn't get very cold very often in the flatlands of Western Washington. (image and rainfall '%' error courtesy of The Weather Channel)

I don't own a heat pump for unspecified reasons, but my parents' house has a heat pump. The house was built in 1995, and the heat pump has been replaced only once since then.

One thing that I and others may not like about heating with a heat pump is that they don't really blow warm air on you. They do warm a house of course, but it doesn't feel warm to me. This issue was mentioned earlier with the air coming out of the vents referred to as "tepid". So if you like standing in front of a fire, you may not like saving money with a heat pump.

quote:

wild ass INACCURATE

Ok EM, you win brother. Now go relax, take a deep breath and maybe have a cold one.

I have stated my opinions that is all.

HP's are pretty technical and specialized eq. That is why specialized training is required to install and service them.
They are good products as I have said. I don't prefer them to the AC condensing units which I also said.

If you have never driven a manual transmission vehicle and you don't get training on how to operate it, damage will occur and repairs will need to be made and they will be expensive.

If you have a HP installed and never have owned one and you do not get some basic info on how it works and how you should operate it or at least
how to monitor it. Bad things can happen. Like a lot of things. Service calls and repairs are expensive.

You said "most" failure are because of the installers. I said a lot were. I know many of the failures were done by competent installers. My take is that there was some operator error involved at the homeowner level in some cases which was a contributing factor to the premature equip. failure. And some times stuff just fails.

I am done here and sorry you got so worked up.

I hope you are not mired in HP service calls this week

Just kidding.

Have fun.

So we disagree, that doesn't always make you right. But then again, convincing you of that is, well, another story in and of itself

This message has been edited. Last edited by: old rugged cross,

quote:

Originally posted by fizteach:
It is my understanding that heat pumps are best for more moderate climates and do not do well in climates that are crazy hot or super cold. At least, that is what one of my physics professors taught a great number of years ago.

With the comment above, I see why he taught...

In the cooling mode, a HP is an air conditioner. So how's crazy hot effect its operation anymore than a straight A/C?
(Answer: it doesn't)

At 0 degrees F, most HP's still have a COP of around 2.0 That means it uses 50% of the energy to transfer the same amount of heat then using straight electric strip heat.
At some point (usually around 30 F) the heat pump will hit its balance point. Meaning it will no longer transfer enough heat to maintain the temperature of the space. Which the difference is either made-up from electric strip heaters or switching to a gas fired furnace (dual fuel).

In order to figure out which is more cost effective, one needs to know the cost for each of the fuels (Electric, Natural and LP). One can then generate a cost for every given configuration (HP, HP w/Electric Bkup and straight gas).

A HP with electric backup may be the more efficient way to go, but some prefer to have a dual fuel system. Which allows furnace operation with a smaller generator in case of a power outage.

For all the, "HP's don't work in colder climates", it gets down to 0 degrees F here and they work just fine. And they are as reliable as any other equipment that gets installed correctly. In fact, usually less problematic because the people who purchase HP's are normally better at keeping their filters changed on a regular basis.

For all the, "HP's are no good because I had a problematic one", there's another homeowner with a straight air conditioner that has the same horror story. You can't judge equipment accurately when you had a botched install from the word go.

quote:

Originally posted by rh:

Perhaps someone who knows more about heat pump efficiency than me can comment about the accuracy of what I was told about those being good temperatures for efficient heat pump operation. I think that they are since it doesn't get very cold very often in the flatlands of Western Washington.

Yes, the warmer climate is definitely an advantage for the OP.

You have two choices for HP's.
1) Air-to-Air (most common and looks like a normal A/C)
2) Ground (Geothermal)

With GEO the loops/wells are in the ground. Which usually provides a steady temperature of 50-55 F. The higher temperature gives you a higher efficiency (COP) and output. Operating with a COP somewhere around 4.0 with a pretty consistent output.

With air-to-air, you're relying on the climate for a given area. Higher temps give you higher efficiencies and outputs, while lower temps compromise efficiencies and outputs. Here's an example of COP's and outputs for a given 3 ton, air-to-air HP.

65 degrees F, COP 4.4 with 45.3K Btu output.
60 F, COP 4.3, 42.8K output
55 F, 4.1, 40.4K
50 F, 3.9, 37.7K
45 F, 3.7, 34.9K
40 F, 3.6, 32.4K
35 F, 3.4, 29.9K
30 F, 3.0, 27.2K
25 F, 2.8, 25.1K
20 F, 2.7, 23.1K
15 F, 2.5, 21.0K
10 F, 2.3, 18.8K
05 F, 2.1, 16.7K
00 F, 1.9, 14.6K
-5 F, 1.7, 12.4K
-10 F, 1.4, 10.2K

As you see from the above data:
at 65 F you have a 4.4 COP (440% or under 23% of the cost)
at 30 F you have a 3.0 COP (300% or under 34% of the cost)
at 00 F you have a 1.9 COP (190% or under 53% of the cost)

In laymen's terms, if you had straight electric strip heat producing 3 Million Btu's and costing you $100

You could transfer the same 3 Million Btu's with a HP running in:
65 degree weather for $ 22.72
30 degree weather for $ 33.33
00 degree weather for $ 52.63

Warmer weather, greater savings.
Another advantage in warmer climates is the ability to heat the home with the HP and not having to rely on more expensive supplemental heat.

quote:

Originally posted by rh:
One thing that I and others may not like about heating with a heat pump is that they don't really blow warm air on you. They do warm a house of course, but it doesn't feel warm to me. This issue was mentioned earlier with the air coming out of the vents referred to as "tepid". So if you like standing in front of a fire, you may not like saving money with a heat pump.

This is true, but be aware that the temperature outputs of new higher efficiency furnaces are not what they used to be. For instance an older furnace may have a temperature rise of 75-105 F, while a newer model may only be 35-65 F. Say both are operating in the middle of the range, the older one will supply 160F air, while the newer model will only supply 120F air (given a return temp of 70F).
Most HP's will have around 90-100 degree supply air.

One of the factors with people feeling cold. Is if you have a dual-fuel system, there's no heat to offset the unit while running a defrost cycle (running in a/c mode). So you end up with a system blowing cold air for a few minutes. While a system which has electric strip heat for back-up can be energized to offset the 'defrost cycle' air conditioner. Basically cancelling each other out and leaving you with a blower moving room temperature air.

I already kicked the dog.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

If you have never driven a manual transmission vehicle and you don't get training on how to operate it, damage will occur and repairs will need to be made and they will be expensive.

But they are both (A/C or HP) operated by a simple stat (Heat/Cool, Temp up/down, Fan on/off). Which, if set-up correctly, will not induce failures.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
If you have a HP installed and never have owned one and you do not get some basic info on how it works and how you should operate it or at least
how to monitor it. Bad things can happen. Like a lot of things. Service calls and repairs are expensive.

Please STOP or provide facts to back up the above statement.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
You said "most" failure are because of the installers. I said a lot were. I know many of the failures were done by competent installers. My take is that there was some operator error involved at the homeowner level in some cases which was a contributing factor to the premature equip. failure. And some times stuff just fails.

Most failures are installer related. Some are defective parts, happens with everything, but seldom happens. Power outages, voltage drops, voltage spikes, lightning damage, rodents, animal piss, environmental conditions... etc.

Operator error is not one of them, unless the equipment wasn't set-up properly. And even then, it falls back to an installer error.

You show me any HVAC system with multiple failures and you'll have yourself a system that wasn't sized, installed and set-up correctly.

HP's are not the devil as some people portrait. However, the installer might have been.

BTW, we're cool... I'm just in debunking myths mode.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

Ok EM, you win brother.

you edited to add Last edited by: old rugged cross, July 20, 2017 10:28 AM
So we disagree, that doesn't always make you right. But then again, convincing you of that is, well, another story in and of itself

"you win, we disagree, that doesn't make you right"... do you always talk in circles?

You sure can't convince someone when you FAIL to post ANY facts to back up your statement!

Why do you refuse to do so and keep sidestepping the question?
(Answer: Cause there's no data to support your claim)

Your statement makes as much sense as needing to re-learn how to operate a light switch, because the electrician installed a new LED fixture instead of using a fluorescent type.

Excam- he hasn't posted in 2 days.....let it be.