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Picture of arcwelder
I know I'm not the only one who has been on a mission.

Life can get away from you for a number of reasons, that aren't even exotic. Sometimes they are, like a death close to you, or other traumatic event.

Because of the evolved efficiencies of the human body, and the science that lets certain food produce brain cum, now you're a fat piece of shit.

Unfucking that, means fighting your biology on several fronts.

"Fad diets" and any short term promises aren't going to do it.

Long term change is in order. Start small. Make promises to yourself that are easy to keep at first.

My first go at this, netted me a ~70lb loss, which I literally at back about 30lbs of. Now I'm back on track, and hungry in a variety of ways.

Hey man, there are lots of ways that may work, but the one that works for you, will work because you're committed.

I'm closing back in on 200, because I've shed some major distress and replaced it with eustress.

Eustress. Look it up. You want it. Short definition is motivation.

If you have no motivation, you will defeat you.

If you are motivated, almost any diet will succeed short term. Long term is more complex.

Life change is in order. The key is to find that motivation, find that focus, and then crush it.

Watch Conan the Destroyer until it sets in. Climb over everyone in your way as they are stepping stones to your enlightenment.

The only way out is through, and you best not be in my way, motherfucker.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of rtquig
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Instead of looking at it as a diet, I'm looking at it as more of a life change in eating. There are plenty of good meals that don't contain carbs and fats. I've been slowly loosing weight and I expect to get to my goal in a little over a year. Next month we are going on an Alaskan Cruise and I'm concerned that I will gain weight that week. I can live with putting on a few pounds during the cruise, but don't want to get back to eating junk foods and alcohol.

Living the Dream
Posts: 3718 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: December 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of arcwelder
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Life change.

"Diet" is a loaded, shit term.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
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I’ve lost 38 pounds. Goal is to get to 180. I’m at 197 right now. That’s right... I let my fat ass get to 235 before I said enough was enough!!

I’ll probably drop to 170 and get toned. I’m 5’3” and built stocky.

I’m determined.

Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
Posts: 11085 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of arcwelder
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Are you a fat piece of shit?

Don't worry, it's not your fault.

Until you realize you're a fat piece of shit, and do nothing about it. Then, you own it.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
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I’m down ~70 lbs from my all time high.

Don’t eat like a lumberjack unless you are one.

I’ve lost about 20 lbs this year as my appetite has evaporated. That may be because I spend ~23 hours a day in bed most days. My A1C has dropped out of the prediabetic range, all other blood work, b-p, etc. is normal. Now if only I could breathe!

Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Diet is a noun, not a verb. Diet is what I eat, not what I do.

Ignem Feram
Posts: 415 | Registered: October 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
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Lol. I’m a fat pos. Can’t chase these young criminals anymore. I’m 5’11”. My heaviest was 245. Got down to 190 after my divorce then let it creep up again. Last month I was 217. Cut out a lot of carbs and today I was at 201. Mainly gave up pasta and bread. Can’t give up rice since it’s a staple. Now I just need to start exercising. My goal is to be back to 190. I should try harder since i am a type ii diabetic. My latest a1c was 7.1 which is down from three months earlier where it was at 7.8.

Not minority enough!
Posts: 7087 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of arcwelder
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5'9" 280 at my worst.

I'm built like a brick shithouse,between body type and occupation. The best I did was 208, and I'm working to get back there.

I don't think I can go below 200, we'll see. Muscle weighs more than fat, and while I do take in cardio, I'll never be a runner.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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good stuff

there is a guy that writes a bunch on fitness for LE / mil (Stew Smith) and - paraphrased - says:

train like your life - or a loved one's life - depends on it

that's good enough reason for me to stay fit


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Posts: 8527 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of arcwelder
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There are a lot of things against us, beyond our own biology. Social "norms" are a huge factor, both negative and positive feedback loops. Add to that the power of the commercial machine to tell you what you want in your mouth.

Your life does depend on it, but it's all too easy to be asleep. Because 2018.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sugar and grains are the enemy. Unprocessed meat with a higher fat content, green vegetables and limited fruit is, without a doubt, the most effective way of losing body fat and reducing most chronic health symptoms.
Posts: 254 | Location: Bardstown, KY | Registered: December 06, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of arcwelder
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Any processed foods should be avoided. Whenever possible. Something to be avoided wholesale is corn syrup in any form.

Gluten? Meh, I'm not worried.


"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bone 4 Tuna
Picture of jjkroll32
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I remember your previous thread. Thank you for the update.

I wish you the best on your quest.

An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it. - Col Jeff Cooper

NRA Life Member

Long Live the Super Thirty-Eight
Posts: 10994 | Location: Mid-Michigan | Registered: October 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of SIG4EVA
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I'm battling this. Every time I get down to close my target weight, I let go and go right back up. I'm honestly getting sick of it.

SIG556 Classic
P220 Carry SAS Gen 2 SAO
SP2022 9mm German Triple Serial
P938 SAS

Psalm 118:24 "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it"
Posts: 6210 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
I'm battling this. Every time I get down to close my target weight, I let go and go right back up. I'm honestly getting sick of it.

Forget about "target weights" or weight at all. Toss out the scale if you want. Body composition is what matters.

I was watching the 2017 Crossfit games the other day. Those guys are hitting the finals at around 5% body fat. Do you think they are at that level all year? Or, do they care about weight? They are peaking for the final competition and only care about performance. Rest of the year they could average 10-20lbs heavier.

So how does that relate to everyday folks? Shift your focus from "diet" and "weight loss" to "health" "nutrition" and "fitness."

It is actually why a while back I started a different thread on each topic.

Instead of a short-term "diet" thinking you will hit some target weight and them somehow magically stay there, focus on learning about nutrition and slowly making better long term nutritional choices. There will be times you are eating healthier and times where you slip a bit, that is fine. Don't be a zealot about it, just be "better" than you are now. An example, I won't say the tacos we had the other night were "healthy" per se, but with low carb tortillas (5g net per), lean ground bison mixed 50/50 with chorizo and fresh lettuce from the garden, and a salad on the side, they were a lot healthier than standard flour or corn tortillas (triple the carbs) and 80/20 ground beef with a side of chips and salsa.

Same with fitness. You don't need to be a fitness freak or even join a gym (I never have). Learn about different energy systems and types of strength and work on developing total body strength, endurance, aerobic/anaerobic capacity and functional flexibility.

The above can be as simple as a 5 min joint mobility warm up, 20 min body weight strength circuit with short rest periods (at home) and a 5 min yoga/stretching cooldown. 30 mins 3x per week.

At 44 I can still out-perform almost every young IN NCO in my unit and I do it with only 3x 20-45 min workouts per week. I don't do Crossfit (though those in my unit who do are studs), I don't pay for gym memberships. I just do short-efficient workouts.

“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

Be harder to kill:
Posts: 4905 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's not you,
it's me.
Picture of RAMIUS
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Strambo got it.

Hit those weights. Muscle burns calories and fat 24/'s basically insurance when you want to cheat.

Muscle increases testosterone, which has a ton of benefits.

Work those legs to get on the fast track to weight loss...squats, deadlifts, lunges etc...LEGS, LEGS, LEGS (It's how I keep abs and visible obliques year-round at 195lbs, 5'10").

People do so much useless stuff, when they could just do a solid leg workout and get a big bang for your buck. Sure, legs are hard work, but the results pay off in dividends.

I also am a fan of quick intense workouts with weights and maybe a bit of cardio.

When it starts to hurt, keep going.

Cardio alone is a waste of time and will guarantee you yo-yo back to fatness.
Posts: 7015 | Location: Right outside Philly | Registered: September 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've been tracking calories & macros since the beginning of the year. I've always been into fitness, just not consistent about it.

Eating correctly is more than half the battle. Probably 70-80%.

For most people, there is nothing wrong with eating bread & pasta. It's just REALLY easy to over eat. Bread & pasta are very calorie dense and a little goes a long way. Most if us tend to eat 3-4 servings and count it as one.

I've been using an app called myfitnesspal to set goals & track progress. It helps keep me accountable.

Most of us do not eat enough protein. .8 grams of protein per lb of body weight works well for most. Healthy fat should be around .2 grams per lb of body weight, add enough carbs to get you to your daily calorie goal based on you hmr (Basal metabolic rate). has a bmr calculator and tons of info if you're interested in learning more.

Like guns, Love Sigs
Posts: 1178 | Location: Battle Born | Registered: December 26, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not
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The last 6 weeks I have been feeling really crappy . Had a Sinus and Ear infections and on my second course of antibiotics. Started checking my blood sugars and they are pre diabetic range so I have been making an effort to lose weight. Down 20 lbs in the last 2 weeks. Have quite a bit to go. Start planet fitness on the first!!!
Posts: 7399 | Location: Bismarck ND | Registered: February 19, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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I can't even tell you how many books I've read on this subject over the last 2.5 years. It's become something I've learned a ton about.

The best book I can recommend is called "The Obesity Code" by Dr. Jason Fung. You can get it on audible too if you prefer books on tape (I certainly do). I can't stress this enough, if you really want to learn about this and take care of yourself, READ THIS BOOK!

After you read that, read "Why We Get Fat." Not as good as the Obesity Code, but it reforges what you learned in the other book and gives some other facts and studies.

It will most definitely give you the basics.

Here are some highlights of what I've learned over the years.

1) Weight gain has nothing to do with calories, fat in foods or exercise. You must forget everything you think you know.

The data on this is extremely clear. Back around 1960 they thought fat in the diet lead to heart disease and heart attacks. To eliminate fat in the diet, you must increase Carbohydrates. It's just that simple. Well, they were wrong, fat doesn't cause heart disease.

Seriously, clear your mind of everything you've heard if you want to understand this stuff. Sooooooo much of what they said back in the day was not based on science. It was all garbage.

2) Weight gain is all about hormones. Control your hormones and you'll control your weight.

There are several hormones that contribute to weight gain, but the main one is insulin.

3) Calories in must be lower than calories out to lose weight is total BS and will NEVER lead to lasting weight loss/control. If it enters your mind, immediately think "I'm doing it wrong" and go back to reading the books I mentioned.

4) Fat is actually good for you, eat it, it tastes yummy and keeps you healthy.

5) Here is the very basic rundown of how this all works, but it's not enough to make you understand how this all works and make you successful. You really need to travel the journey of ready the books. It's what makes it all sink in and make sense.

Your body is extremely smart and everything is regulated. What regulates us is hormones.

The whole calories in must be lower than calories out is BS for the reason that is assumes your calories out are a constant. That's just dumb, we all know it isn't.

So, you suddenly start eating only 500 calories a day, you will start losing weight! yeah! the problem is, after a while (around a month or three), your body will be like, oh shit, this isn't ending. We better start conserving energy. So, it slows everything down. It slows your heart rate, your liver and kidney function, it slows your brain function even.

It does all of this adjust to 500 calories. It's like if you suddenly take a pay cut you stop spending. The body will not continue to burn 2k calories per day, and this is why all calorie restricted diets fail within 6 months or less. It's inevitable, and sadly it's even been proven several times over the decades but we keep doing. (The books are awesome in getting into all the studies).

So, when your body stops losing weight and you even start to gain weight (even though you're still only eating 500 calories a day) it's because your body is only further slowing your various functions down in effort to restore the fat it burned.

All the while, your body is under fueled and constantly calling for more fuel...hunger! Eventually you say screw it and start eating like you used to. Unfortunately your body is still only burning 500 per day and immediately starts to store the new calories as fat...result, you are fatter than when you started.

This whole process of your body slowing its function is homeostasis. Likewise, they've done studies where they take people and start feeding them like 6k calories a day of protein and fats and they don't gain any weight. Your body will increase its metabolism to burn them off. more on that later.

That is one part of it, here's another: a calorie is not a calorie! To measure a calorie, they burn the food and see how much heat (read energy) is given off and assign it a caloric value.

The problem is that your body burns foods very differently. Your body will fats very quickly. Eat them, they are good fuel.

Your body burns carbs quickly too. they are actually a great energy source.

But here's the problem, try eating 1,000 calories of carbs...suuuuuuper easy. Good size bowl of ice-cream and you're there. Now try eating 1,000 calories of fats and proteins. It takes almost a full 16 oz steak to get there.

Point is, it's very easy to over eat carbs. So, when you eat carbs, your body can't possibly burn all the fuel you just took in. Your body will thus increase you insulin levels to tell it to stop burning fat and also to store the excess carbohydrate energy in fat cells.

When you have extra protein energy from that steak in your system, it doesn't cause your body to release insulin like the carbs do. Instead your muscle cells store the extra energy in them for fuel later.

That is a huuuuuuuuuuuge difference. would you prefer your excess food energy to be stored as fat or in your muscles?

Now, if all is equal, fat cells storing extra energy for later really isn't a big deal. Just burn it right?

But here is the problem and why we get fat. Your body cannot (by this I mean biologically prohibited from) burning fat while insulin levels in the body are high.

So here is cycle, you eat carbs. Your insulin levels go up and you store fat. A couple hours later, your body needs more fuel. It uses the protein and fats (not your fat cells, but fat from the food), but then it runs out. It turns to the fat in your fat cells, but it can't burn that fuel because you still have a lot of insulin in your blood.

End result, your body tells you it's hungry so you eat again. buuuuut, you eat more carbs, so your body does the whole thing over again.

You are constantly eating for fuel because your insulin won't let you body burn your stored fat.

This is why we say avoid carbs. What you're really doing is allowing your insulin levels to get low and stay low.

This means you get hungry less often as your body will be burning it's fat. If you want to lose weight, you have to allow your body to burn the fat it has stored, and it can't do that if you have high insulin levels. It's science and it's proven, no way around it.

so why are some people skinny? is it because they have a high metabolism? Yes, but what causes that? Really it's not because they have a high metabolism but rather it's because they are very sensitive to insulin.

Insulin gets sugar out of the blood and into cells (carbs and sugars create sugar in the blood). The more sensitive to it you are, the less insulin it takes for your body to stuff the sugar into cells.

So a fat guy and skinny guy eat the same pizza. The skinny guy needs 5 MUU's of insulin (MUU = made up units) to get the excess energy/sugar into his cells. The fat guy's body requires 70 MUU's to get the same amount of energy/sugar into his cells.

Lets say the body lowers insulin levels at a rate of 2 MUU's/hour. 2.5 hours after eating that pizza, the skinny guy has no insulin in his blood and his body is free to burn fat. The fat guy's body can't access his fat stores for 35 hours. That means he's essentially never burning fat, only storing it.

Every time he eats, that insulin in his blood is telling his body to store more fat. He is constantly storing fat and never burning it. thus he gets fatter and fatter...sound familiar?

Keep in mind, insulin sensitivity is not just a genetic lottery, it's also time sensitive. That means as we age, our sensitivity to it drops. boo!

In the Obesity Code Dr. Fung gets into how this creates diabetes. Like other drugs or substances, the body builds a tolerance. Meaning, the more often your have insulin in your blood, the less your body reacts to it.

So after years of having high insulin levels in his blood, that same fat guy will eventually need 100 MUU's of insulin to pack the same amount of energy/sugar into his cells.

this is why the fat get fatter. They are constantly requiring more and more insulin to do the same job. Being sensitive to insulin is genetics. Skinny people are just lucky like that. However, like with most tolerances we build up, if you abstain from the substance, you will eventually lower your tolerance.

If you want to lose and maintain weight, you must make sure your body has access to it's fat stores by keeping your insulin down. Avoiding sugar and carbs is an easy way to do this. It will also allow your body to become more and more sensitive to insulin. Thus when you eventually to indulge in some pizza (We do pizza every Friday now, but I avoided carbs for about 7 months in the beginning), your body won't have to release a shit-ton of insulin to handle your blood sugar like it does now. that means you're back to fat burning mode faster.

As stated above, if your insulin levels are low, it's almost impossible to gain weight. Eat fats and proteins with reckless abandon, you'll be fine.

The other key component to this is WHEN you eat, not just what you eat. If you'd like to learn more on this, I'd highly recommend another book by Dr. Fung called "The Compete Guide to Fasting."

Allowing your body time for it's insulin levels to drop is key. So this whole BS about eating numerous smaller meals a day is so wrong. It doesn't work at all, and again, the books get deeper into the science and studies.

So, I only eat between the hours of noon and 8 pm. This allows my body plenty of time to let it's insulin levels to come down and gives me a nice window of time for my body to be burning its fat reserves.

The other benefit is when your body burns off all of its glycogen. When this happens your body literally has nothing left to burn but fat. This is fat shredding mode for sure. Your body converts fat into ketones for your brain to fuel itself with.

This is a state called ketoses, and it's money for fat burning.

I found it impossible to fast for 18 hours (what I do now) or longer when I first started eating differently. Quiet simply, until you avoid carbs for a while, your insulin levels will be too high and your body will not be able to burn its fat. In essence you will be starving yourself.

once your gone through the keto sickness (you will likely spend a week or two feeling sick when you stop eating carbs), and your body is able to burn fat again, you be able to start.

Is fasting "starving yourself?" NO! This again is BS they taught us, but are just wrong. Your body is built to store energy and burn that energy later. If your insulin levels are low, your body will easily switch fuel sources and start burning fat.

you will get hungry on an extended fast (say 7 days), but all hunger goes away after 24 to 36 hours. It's crazy but true. you have tons of energy, feel great and aren't hungry.

Think about, the average person has enough fat on their body to walk from NY to Miami using fat energy alone.

We don't NEED to eat for fuel. we have plenty of it packed on us. Let your body use it. When you get to single digit body fat %'s, then stop extended fasts and just use intermittent fast (like my feeding for 8 hours and fasting for 16 routine).

Fasting is a bit controversial, but I'm a believer. Read up on it after the other books. once you have a good base of knowledge about how our bodies work, it will make more sense. This area is very interesting and needs for you to explore it a lot more, but when you eat is almost as important as what you eat, so don't ignore it in your research.

fasting is different from calorie restricted diets for a couple of reasons, but chiefly because your body doesn't adjust to it over time. It's part of it's normal cycle. In caveman days we didn't eat every day. Think about a lion. It makes a kill and eats the fatty organs (not the lean muscle meat actually) and might go a couple days before it makes another kill.

the world record for fasting was just finished and it was over 1 year! He started at over 400 or so pounds and when he fished he was 180 lbs. His body lived easily for over a year on his fat energy. His body functions (heart/lung/brain/etc) didn't slow because his body had ample energy stores to use. Your body doesn't care if it burns food or fat. It really doesn't care. The only issue is if your insulin levels prevent it for getting to the fat or if you've run out of fat to burn.

There is a lot of talk about fast and something called autophagy, but I don't know about all that. If it's an added benefit, great, but it's not why I do it.

So where does excise play into this? It doesn't. If you're insulin levels are up, you cannot burn off fat. Remember, your body is prohibited from it. All that will happen is you'll cook off your available energy and your body will want to eat more and the insulin will tell your body to store more fat.

Now, if you are avoiding carbs and sugar and your insulin is thus low, the story is different. The biggest benefit is that muscle takes about three times as much energy to sustain as fat. So building muscle means your body will be storing less energy and using more. So, I suppose it does play a role, but not a huge one. Keep in mind, around 80% of what your body burns a day has nothing to do with movement. It's your biology (heart/liver/kidney/brain/lung/etc funciton) that burns the majority of your fuel. If you burn a couple hundred more a day, it will help, but not change the world, and again, if your insulin is up, it won't touch your fat stores. I work out to look better and feel stronger, not to lose weight. I actually gain weigh by working out now.

I lost my first 40 pounds without working out at all, not even walking.

That might be the longest post I've ever made, and I didn't outline it, or type it up in advance, so forgive me if it's a bit all over the map. like I said, some journeys simply have to be traveled. If anyone is seriously interested in controlling their weight and their health, my hope is that this post will at least intrigue you enough to read the three books I mentioned. After reading them, I think you'll find yourself armed with the knowledge to take control of your weight.

It's not impossible, we can ALL do it. The problem is that what they taught us to do to lose weight is based on bad science and has never worked. Your lack of success on a "diet" isn't your fault, the bad info they told you is to blame. Change up the approach and it will work. If I told you to hold your gun upside down to shoot better and your spilts got worse and not better, it's not you, it's the advice.

ETA: cutting carbs suuuuuucks in the beginning! The cravings were serious the first few weeks. It took me around 3 to 4 months to really get past them, but they became much more manageable after a month or so with the first two weeks being the worst.

If I eat carbs now (like I recently pigged out on cake and ice cream on my daughter's birthday and the next couple of days until the cake was finally gone), I find I crave carbs for a couple of days afterwards, but not at all like what I experienced when I first cut them.

I'm convince sugar is addicting, but that's a whole different topic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: esdunbar,
Posts: 7548 | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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