Look what we did to Libya and Syria previously under obama and hillary? And you're going to question what Trump is doing today?

How many people died in the Arab Spring and ensuing chaos?

Fuck the talking heads- If I saw a news report that stated the sun was out and the sky was blue= I'd have to go outside to verify it for myself.

Leaving American troops there with severe limits on what they can do and no clear goal has been tried for the last few decades. We've lost thousands of lives and somewhere between hundreds of billions to a trillion or more spent. Nobody there is truly our friend, we just share common enemies at times.
Time to try another option. We don't understand the many problems they have with each other much less the solutions.
The Turks and Iran are mortal enemies and share the same neighborhood. Let them sort it out.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
... after 15+ years in Afghanistan/Iraq, military leadership finally grasped the concepts of unconventional warfare and was able to articulate that to civilian leadership.

Civilian leadership has to respect the military. We had an 8 year gap on that during this past 15 years. .

Keep in mind, the 8 years before that, what should've been a unconventional fight in the mountains of Afghanistan, turned into a giant brass party with participation ribbons for all in fully catered, massive bases, meanwhile a new word filtered thru the halls of the Pentagon: transformationalism. Every branch is digging out of that boondoggle.

Each administration for the last 30-years has their hands in this, the only difference with this one is the chief told them to get tangible results or, we're getting out. ISIS is crushed, we're out. Sorry Kurds, you guys were awesome but, we can't be the one's continually solving the neighborhood's problems, Asad was on the ropes and you couldn't figure-out how to carve yourself a piece of the pie.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:...ISIS is crushed...

This is not 1945. ISIS is like HIV/AIDs, you never "crush it", you just control it. It will always be there. Think your are "cured" and in a few months or years you will be dealing with it again. The war on Terrorism never really ends, that is what sucks but it is the reality of today.

Mattis knew what needed to be done and the long term commitment that it requires. Trump does not. Now, we can listen to men that have served and fought or not. You all decide.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:...ISIS is crushed...

This is not 1945. ISIS is like HIV/AIDs, you never "crush it", you just control it. It will always be there. Think your are "cured" and in a few months or years you will be dealing with it again. The war on Terrorism never really ends, that is what sucks but it is the reality of today.

Mattis knew what needed to be done and the long term commitment that it requires. Trump does not. Now, we can listen to men that have served and fought or we can listen to men that had bad feet. You all decide.

You can have a civil discussion, and disagree, without making personal insults toward Trump.

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
You can have a civil discussion, and disagree, without making personal insults toward Trump.

Agreed, edited. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
You can have a civil discussion, and disagree, without making personal insults toward Trump.

Agreed, edited. :-)

Cool. I'm interested in your opinion. I'm out of my element on this topic and I'd rather get contrary opinions from those on our side.

My opinion is simple. If we're going to continue to have these endless military interventions overseas, then it's time for Congress to be involved. Let them debate and vote on it. Let's see them own it and then face their constituents with their decisions.

Question...

In U.S. Military History, a formal "Declaration of War" was not presented to Congress during the Vietnam "War". I was just a kid, but in growing up and lightly studying the era and history, everyone can agree that it turned in to a total shit storm (Captain Obvious).

Having said that, why did President Bush NOT seek a formal Declaration of War against Iraq or whatever other country he deemed responsible for the attacks on 11-SEP 2001? Why has the leadership avoided that formality for the past 50+ years?

Lastly, would passing a formal Declaration of War "ease" things on our military as in CLEARLY define the ROE's and what is done with subversive combatants, i.e., the same exact scenario faced by our troops in Vietnam...cool Asian friend by day; stealthy, cunning Charlie SOB by night. In the ME, we have cool Arab buddy by day; brutal IED-planting, head-sawing off jihadist MFer by night.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:...ISIS is crushed...

This is not 1945. ISIS is like HIV/AIDs, you never "crush it", you just control it. It will always be there. Think your are "cured" and in a few months or years you will be dealing with it again. The war on Terrorism never really ends, that is what sucks but it is the reality of today.

Mattis knew what needed to be done and the long term commitment that it requires. Trump does not. Now, we can listen to men that have served and fought or not. You all decide.

ISIS, like the Taliban, is merely a violent-puritanical version of the dominant beliefs in their respective regions. The splits are more nuanced however, given the perspective that ISIS had control of a number of cities....we've crushed them pretty hard. Will they pop-up again, likely; will something else take its place, most assuredly. Should we be the ones to come and bail-out the region, not any more. We've been there far too long with little results. Time to back the bags.

There's good folks there and deep history, unfortunately, when the politics change in our country, it makes overseas adventures that much more confusing and contradictory. Mattis is a good man with articulate reasoning, only his arrival as SECDEF was the wrong time.

quote:

Originally posted by DennisM:
The Kurds would do well to call or write a few Montagnards for advice. Good luck finding many, though.

Or the Hmong.

quote:

Mattis knew what needed to be done and the long term commitment that it requires. Trump does not. Now, we can listen to men that have served and fought or not. You all decide

You're implying, falsely, that POTUS is unilaterally making these decision, and not listening or consulting with people that have served and/or fought.

You might be surprised to know that there is a HUGE swath of current and retired military personnel that want us OUT of that theater.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
You can have a civil discussion, and disagree, without making personal insults toward Trump.

Agreed, edited. :-)

You didn't edit jack shit. You're just confirming my beliefs about you and your profession. You heard me

Leave it to someone like you to be ungrateful for all that President Trump has done for this nation. You'd rather have Hillary Clinton, and that's not a question or a supposition. You'd rather have Hillary Clinton.

I've heard both sides of the argument and have come the conclusion that only the hawks love endless wars and endless occupations. They will make any excuses to get America be the police everywhere in the world. It ain't possible or feasible. There are times and places to get involved, but, as far as I'm concerned, Syria is done. Get our troops the fuck home. Not one more life lost.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
I've heard both sides of the argument and have come the conclusion that only the hawks love endless wars and endless occupations. They will make any excuses to get America be the police everywhere in the world. It ain't possible or feasible. There are times and places to get involved, but, as far as I'm concerned, Syria is done. Get our troops the fuck home. Not one more life lost.

100% this. We've had people dying over there for most of the last 20 years, and it's gotten us what, exactly? I know a number of guys who went either to Iraq, Afghanistan, or some of them, both. Not a one of them thinks we have any business over there or that it's anything but a waste of time, money, and lives. The cultural barriers are too high to bother, it's not worth it.

At this point, Syria can have a bow tied on it. So shut it down, bring everyone and everything home; let's not do what we've been doing since WWII and leave a shit-ton of weapons and materiel to arm future combatants.

The idiots on the news radio are breathless over "abandoning our Kurdish allies" and keep re-reading Trump's tweet in tones dripping with mockery. If our "Kurdish allies" are truly important and Trump is super wrong about this, can't Congress take some sort of action? Oh I forgot, we're busy impeaching.

The Kurds really want to carve out chunks of Turkey, Syria and Iraq, plus maybe Iran, to make a "Kurdistan" out of, which none of those countries are going to stand for. Do they really love us, or are they in it to this end and just see us as a means to it?

I am in favor of pretty much anything PDJT does. He's my President and I plan on that being a true statement till early 2025.

I happen to agree that these wars have gone on far too long and virtually nothing that will last has been accomplished.

Bring our GIs home. The Kurds? They just gotta stand on their own or find a new ally to fight with them.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by craigcpa:

quote:

Originally posted by CQB60:
The Kurds were invaluable in providing assistance and support to us so many areas. Make no mistake, we just dealt them to the wolves.

Ditto! Just not right, imho.

They’ve been fighting over there for hundreds of years. They will be doing so in another hundred.

It sucks to abandon an ally but t the same time the EU nd others need to carry on the fights. Like Trump said, we aren’t the world’s police force.

Not in favor of abandoning an ally (Kurds, in this context), but if they really have even daydreams of forming their own nation, their fight for that hasn't even begun. "Kurdistan" will take all the juju the Kurds have, and we are under no obligation to be there to supply them supplies nor our sons. Let them sort it out, we gave them a head start and a tank of gas.

The Kurds are more than just an "ally." The Kurds are the ones that we're used time and time again to do most of the fighting and dying, shored up by all manner of promises, and in each case, we've let them down.

In Iraq, the Kurdish government stands head and shoulders above the Iraqi arab government. At the height of hostility in Iraq, the Kurdish regions were far more stable. Irbil was a safe area, whereas not far away Mosul was the wild west, along with Kirkuk.

We've been promising the Kurds our full support since gulf war one, when they were urged to rise up, and we'd stand behind them. Instead, we flew overflights, watching them gassed and bombed and shelled, killed wholesale, and didn't lift a finger to help. We've done it again and again, and we're doing it now.

I'm in that area right now, and the talk here isn't favorable toward the US from any party. The US reputation internationally is nearly always bad and unfavorable...far more than most people at home could imagine. Particularly worse here, right now.

Erdogan is a piece of shit, and has a strong desire to wipe out the Kurds.