I have a few windows where the inside of the outer pane has become "dirty" - odd thing to me is that it always seems to be the outer pane, not the inner pane. Also, there seems to be some corrosion on the metal framing (Al?) between the panes. The frame itself is vinyl, the metal is only on the inside of the window along the edge of the glass.

While the windows are supposed to be low-E, I can't find any labels to indicate Ar filled. Also, I'm not sure I see two 'holes' to fill and seal with AR. The metal framing looks solid all the way around (but not sure - I don't really know what I'm looking for).

Knowing that the windows are not name brand (some contractor / builder special; not Anderson or other famous brand), is it likely that the windows are just air filled? Can I just replace the panes?

Or were they likely (cheap) Ar filled and I should replace with the same (sounds like I need to buy whole sliding window unit (not the window frame installed into the wall, just the part of the window that moves back and forth - not sure what it's called). (ETA: sounds like the moving part of glass and subframe is called a sash).

Based on my experience, they don't have to be (have been?) air filled for that behavior. If you lose seal, they will fog over like that with time.

Think of the inside of your windows, that will also get dirty over time without any excess pollutants, smoke, etc. inside. It's just the grunge the circulates in air and slooooowly accumulates on glass surface.

Generally the whole pane gets replaced. not just the glass, not the entire window system, but all of that panel. Fixed or slider. Make sure you get someone who will give some reasonable warranty on the replacement.

Try looking on the top of window for manufacturer name/sticker, or other hidden places like in the frame.

By pane, do you mean the sash (new term for me) which seems to be top/bottom and side rails which hold panes of glass. The sashes can be fixed or slide w/in the frame of the window. I'll look around to less obvious places to label info.

For Ar filled sashes, that seems like it would be necessary to replace the entire sash unless they can fill the sash with Ar in the field. Otherwise, I think field replacements would be just panes of glass and air filled sashes.

What I would really like is to have 3M Crystalline tint applied to the inner side of the outer pane. I guess not possible unless it's just a pane replacement for air filled sash.

Two panes (occasionally three) of glass, with an aluminum or stainless steel spacer bar are together referred to as an IGU (insulated glass unit). The airspace is often (usually, these days) also filled with Argon. You typically won’t see fill tube areas where the argon was “injected”.

The “dirty” area you’re seeing on the inboard surface of the exterior pane (the #2 surface) is telling of seal failure; time for new IGUs in those units.

Most windows are re-glazeable, so you can replace just the IGUs, and avoid buying whole sashes. Whole sashes will be more costly, and you’ll need to know the exact mfgr. and window model/line. Most mfgr. have several lines, so a brand isn’t enough info.

Nobody that I’m aware of will put a film between the panes. But you can get varying levels of Low-E (elemental silver) ordered with your IGUs, if you want more heat/solar rejection. Be aware that the IGUs you replace may have a little different appearance, especially from the street. More noticeable with higher levels of Low-E coating.

If this is above your comfort level, find a local glass shop; most contractors don’t want to mess with re-glazing existing windows. Also, might be worth checking if the windows had a 20-year or even lifetime warranty on the glass. Many do, so you might only be out of pocket for the labor.

I sounds like there is a bit of confusion on naming parts. I'm not a window guy, but I've fought the battle of leaking windows in new construction.

A pane of glass is a single sheet or glass...what folks used to replace when a window was broken.

What most folks replace now is the whole panel/sash...both the inner and outer panes of glass. The glass is all one unit which includes the metal that you're seeing between them and the vinyl holding it all together

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:
Two panes (occasionally three) of glass, with an aluminum or stainless steel spacer bar are together referred to as an IGU (insulated glass unit). The airspace is often (usually, these days) also filled with Argon. You typically won’t see fill tube areas where the argon was “injected”.

The “dirty” area you’re seeing on the inboard surface of the exterior pane (the #2 surface) is telling of seal failure; time for new IGUs in those units.

Most windows are re-glazeable, so you can replace just the IGUs, and avoid buying whole sashes. Whole sashes will be more costly, and you’ll need to know the exact mfgr. and window model/line. Most mfgr. have several lines, so a brand isn’t enough info.

Nobody that I’m aware of will put a film between the panes. But you can get varying levels of Low-E (elemental silver) ordered with your IGUs, if you want more heat/solar rejection. Be aware that the IGUs you replace may have a little different appearance, especially from the street. More noticeable with higher levels of Low-E coating.

If this is above your comfort level, find a local glass shop; most contractors don’t want to mess with re-glazing existing windows. Also, might be worth checking if the windows had a 20-year or even lifetime warranty on the glass. Many do, so you might only be out of pocket for the labor.

Thanks. Some of this sounds familiar. But the terminology still gets me. I think what you're saying is that a sash (which is kind of like a frame that contains metal spacer and panes of glass with air or Ar filling.

And sounds like I can keep the sash frame, just replace the IGU that goes inside it. Are IGU's standard sizes? I think my window / sash is off brand (it certainly isn't Anderson or top brand). Or do I need to use an IGU from the same mfg (unknown at this time) as the sash / window? Using your terminology, am I looking to re-glaze (replace the IGU)? Sounds like I'm not looking to just replace the outer pane of glass in the sash.

Not too worried about different color or look - it's not visible from the curb. But would like to reduce heat transmittance.

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
I sounds like there is a bit of confusion on naming parts. I'm not a window guy, but I've fought the battle of leaking windows in new construction.

A pane of glass is a single sheet or glass...what folks used to replace when a window was broken.

What most folks replace now is the whole panel/sash...both the inner and outer panes of glass. The glass is all one unit which includes the metal that you're seeing between them and the vinyl holding it all together

Sounds like what Outnumbered is suggesting. Am I looking for the specific mfgr for my window? Or can I just go to any glass / window store and they'll come measure and order the IGU size I need (whatever brand / specs I want)?

quote:

Or can I just go to any glass / window store and they'll come measure and order the IGU size I need (whatever brand / specs I want)?

That's what I did when I had a hole through both panes. I wasn't too worried about brand, I just didn't want holes in my windows

They came out, measured and replaced the whole unit in very little time...30 mins (?)

I'm sure it would take more time if you only wanted them to replace one pane and reseal the until.

The only windows I've seen, while shopping, where you could put film on the inner surface of panes of glass were Pella windows...where the inner pane is removable for cleaning and shutters they could place inside. They installed a 12' double slider, a Bay window and a Bow window in my old house in Carmichael.

quote:

They came out, measured and replaced the whole unit in very little time...30 mins (?)

Wait. I'm not sure I understand. They came out and measured. Then went away, made the replacement (IGU? Ar filled?) than came back later (another day) and installed w/in 30 minutes?

Or they came, measured, made a new IGU and the installed - all same day w/in 30 minutes?

Without knowing costs, I don't know if I want them to just replace one pane and let air be between the panes (again, not sure if the originals were air are Ar filled) or to do an Ar filled replacement IGU. Functionally, I think air is probably sufficient as long as the window doesn't get "dirty" for another 10-15 years.

Most window makers use nitrogen instead of argon, much cheaper. One company had a couple cylinders of Krypton but it was stupid expensive.

OP, you’re correct. The sash is the (typically) moving part of the window, comprised of the vinyl that goes around the IGU, and the IGU itself. The IGU is simply the two panes of glass with the spacer in between, all as one unit. You cannot (and wouldn’t want to) replace only one pane of glass. You’ll replace the entire IGU.

There is really no such thing as standard size IGUs anymore. Two different window manufacturers that may both sell for example a 30”x60” double hung very likely have slightly different sizes IGUs in their (overall) identical sized window. Including the thickness is overall different, which is important. Some IGUs are 5/8” thick overall, some 3/4”, 7/8”, 1” etc.

A glass service will come out, verify your sashes are re-glazeable; they almost always are, which can be ascertained by the presence of a removable glazing bead around the perimeter of the glass, usually on the exterior. They’ll likely pop off the glazing bead so they can measure the full face measurements of the glass, and be able to check the thickness as well. They’ll go away and order the glass from a glass mfgr., then return typically 3-6 weeks later to install. Easy peasy.

quote:

Originally posted by Schmelby:
Most window makers use nitrogen instead of argon, much cheaper. One company had a couple cylinders of Krypton but it was stupid expensive.

While the base/default gas in some mfgrs may be nitrogen, for most window companies these days, argon fill is the standard for the vast majority of IGUs in modern windows. Low-E/Argon pkg. is considered the industry standard for most windows anymore. Sure, you can strip out into nitro/clear for some companies, but it is increasingly uncommon.

Thanks! This clarifies much. I think I know better how to discuss options with a glass / window provider. Now to find a shop - like Renewal Anderson or mom/pop shop? Sounds like I'm not limited to IGU from the brand in use (which I'm not sure - some contractor special I think; I'm not seeing any labels. I'll try to dig into old paper work when I purchased the house but may not matter anyway).

Mom and pop shop, for sure. Renewal and other similar companies won’t re-glaze anything but their own product. Don’t bother looking for old paperwork or trying to figure out the mfgr unless you’re trying to get free IGUs under warranty from the original mfgr (which is usually a huge pain). Just call the mom and pop shop and you’re good, in my opinion.

Thanks. Got it. Will do.

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:

quote:

Originally posted by Schmelby:
Most window makers use nitrogen instead of argon, much cheaper. One company had a couple cylinders of Krypton but it was stupid expensive.

While the base/default gas in some mfgrs may be nitrogen, for most window companies these days, argon fill is the standard for the vast majority of IGUs in modern windows. Low-E/Argon pkg. is considered the industry standard for most windows anymore. Sure, you can strip out into nitro/clear for some companies, but it is increasingly uncommon.

Maybe. I delivered the gases to almost every window manufacturer in my city. Ninety percent of what I delivered was Nitrogen.
Granted this was several years ago, but if they upcharge you for Argon, how do you know what they put in there?
Anyway, how much more efficient is Argon over Nitrogen? I don't know.

I think those windows are like an auto a/c system. When new they are completely sealed but they will eventually leak. The a/c loses refrigerant and the window loses argon or whatever the gas is.

I used to know a builder and he said all brands leak. I would assume buying the one with the best warranty/longevity might help them last longer.

I’m still living with early 80’s single pane windows. I have too many in the house to upgrade them and not spend 30k or more.

quote:

Originally posted by Schmelby:

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:

quote:

Originally posted by Schmelby:
Most window makers use nitrogen instead of argon, much cheaper. One company had a couple cylinders of Krypton but it was stupid expensive.

While the base/default gas in some mfgrs may be nitrogen, for most window companies these days, argon fill is the standard for the vast majority of IGUs in modern windows. Low-E/Argon pkg. is considered the industry standard for most windows anymore. Sure, you can strip out into nitro/clear for some companies, but it is increasingly uncommon.

Maybe. I delivered the gases to almost every window manufacturer in my city. Ninety percent of what I delivered was Nitrogen.
Granted this was several years ago, but if they upcharge you for Argon, how do you know what they put in there?
Anyway, how much more efficient is Argon over Nitrogen? I don't know.

No experience in window MFG, but I'd bet they purge with nitrogen before filling with argon due to cost. You wouldn't want to use atmospheric gas due to the same issue the OP is having (unclean). Nitrogen is cheap(er) and you can control humidity much better than compressed air. My guess is they use a dry-air blow to clear junk, nitrogen purge to remove last of junk + humidity, nitrogen pressure test, then fill with argon.

Even you 90% WAG is probably pretty close, you'd use a ton more N2 than Ar in my workflow. I haven't looked at N2 prices, but with Ar prices, no sane person would use more than they have to.

Saw this thread last night but was too tired to respond.

First Im assuming that you have standard double pane windows where both the top half and the bottom half can move independently of eachother.

If that is the case, it will be much cheaper to find the manufacturer and just reorder both sashes for each window leaving the frame intact. Most windows, even the basic ones will tilt in and can be removed without any tools or expertise. If you carefully remove the sashes you will usually find a label on the indicating who the manufacturer is and possibly the size or model number. Hopefully this will allow you to purchase the windows either directly or through a local retailer.

As far as trying to replace the glass that’s going to be a waste of time and money if you have any wish of keeping the thermal efficiency of the window. There is no way a local glass company can pull the insulated glass (IGU) and replace the glass while pulling a vacuum to replace the air with Argon gas, and yes virtually All window manufacturers use Argon gas and have for a long time due to its thermal efficiency. Argon belongs to a family of gasses known as Noble Gasses and Nitrogen is not part of that family. I have had the opportunity to visit several window manufacturers and the process requires a large jig and specialized equipment that a local glass company just won’t have.

Another point that was brought up above is that all IGU’s leak over time and that is actually true. The industry standard is 1% per year so keep that in mind.

Another interesting fact, at least to me, is that the majority of IGU’s for the major manufacturers are actually made by a privately owned company by the name of Cardinal Glass. They make the IGU’s for Andersen, Pella and Marvin plus others. If you look at the glass warranty of a window the verbiage is exactly the same…because it is all made by the same manufacturer, Cardinal Glass. They have over a dozen plants all over the country and it is a truly fascinating process to watch.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
As far as trying to replace the glass that’s going to be a waste of time and money if you have any wish of keeping the thermal efficiency of the window. There is no way a local glass company can pull the insulated glass (IGU) and replace the glass while pulling a vacuum to replace the air with Argon gas, and yes virtually All window manufacturers use Argon gas and have for a long time due to its thermal efficiency. Argon belongs to a family of gasses known as Noble Gasses and Nitrogen is not part of that family. I have had the opportunity to visit several window manufacturers and the process requires a large jig and specialized equipment that a local glass company just won’t have.

This is incorrect. An IGU is a (glass plant/factory) pre-built. insulated glass unit which is two (or three) panes of glass, with a spacer bar between panes, and most times has the airspace filled with argon, and sometimes krypton, and rarely xenon. It is a factory built, hermetically sealed all in one unit, sometimes referred to as a glass pack.

A local glass company will indeed replace it as such after carefully measuring it and ordering it from a glass plant. You are correct that nobody can replace one sheet of the glass in the field, but none of us were saying that; that’s why we were referring to IGUs, which is the entire glass unit.

Yes, swapping the entire sash is easier, but many times not cheaper. And will turn into a huge pain in the rump if OP can’t find the exact mfgr and model line of the windows from original order paperwork, dealer records, or the sticker. The stickers are often but not always long gone, except for the useless AAMA certification sticker (if applicable), which seem to be made from something that lasts forever. If he can track down this info, certainly give it a go, because it could yield free IGUs (or possibly sashes), if he was the original purchaser, or the mfgr offered a transferable warranty which was properly transferred (often isn’t). If he gets a free (or purchased) sash, yes very easy DIY swap. Most often the long term warranties only offer a free IGU but no installation labor after 5-10 years.

But you’re right about Cardinal being the biggest/best IGU mfgr.; I live near a couple of their plants and have been on the factory tours. They are light years ahead of the competition WRT technology and QC. There are scores of other national and regional glass plants (I’m guessing Schmelby serviced a huge one, Intigral, in Ohio), but they don’t hold a candle to Cardinal’s quality/quantity.