What is the current charge time from near empty to full charge for both standard and supercharging?

My job is in powertrain and my primary responsibilities are IC engines, but I have some involvement in batteries and hydrogen fuel cells. Our battery assembly lines use LG flat Lithium Ion 3v batteries that are intended for laptop computers. Stack several of them together in layers with PTC pads and then assemble the stacks into modules for 24 or 48 volts.

For commercial vehicles, the modules go into a pack at 600 volts, and you have to make the final connections "hot". Yep, 600 volts "hot" which is a huge industrial no-no. That's because you can't drain Lithium Ion batteries to zero volts without killing them. So all have nominal charge, and you need a robot to do the final connections.

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Originally posted by Anubismp:
What is the current charge time from near empty to full charge for both standard and supercharging?

It varies wildly based on battery capacity among other things.

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Originally posted by Mboroman:

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Originally posted by 1s1k:
I still haven’t heard anyone come up with an insurmountable scenario that won’t be able to be handled in the next 19 years. Realistically even longer since ICE cars will be around much longer than that.

Not looking to be confrontational - just trying to take a realistic look at where we are.

Unless there is a fantastical breakthrough in storage technology, EVs will probably be nothing more than a niche market. Converting entire countries to EVs is physically impossible and currently nothing but a pipe dream.

See this thread from a week ago: https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/5810000284

Even if a completely different type of storage using commonly available materials is invented, what power grid will be able to charge hundreds of millions of cars per day? We already have supply issues without all those EVs plugged in.

Will we be there in 19 years? Maybe but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

The last ICE cars being built is 19 years from now. I’m sure tons of people will have their ICE cars 15 years after that if they want to so the entire fleet won’t change over in 19 years.

The reality is you won’t be forced into an electric car for 35 years or so if you don’t want to. I’m pretty confident we can figure out how to reasonably charge a car in that amount of time.

Have you ever noticed you can’t fly with Lithium-ion batteries on planes? That’s because they catch fire and burn quite energetically. The general rule of thumb is the higher the energy storage density, the less stable they are and more energetically they burn. And getting them wet is a bad idea, too.

The faster you charge a battery, the shorter it’s lifespan. The higher the operating environment, the shorter the lifespan. The more times you cycle a battery, the shorter the lifespan. So there is no way to predict how long a battery will last in an electric vehicle.

And I believe that a battery that can be charged in a few minutes and last as long as an IC motor will be invented just as soon as a working commercial fusion reactor goes on line. They’ve been working on both about the same amount of time.

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Originally posted by Nuclear:
Have you ever noticed you can’t fly with Lithium-ion batteries on planes? That’s because they catch fire and burn quite energetically. The general rule of thumb is the higher the energy storage density, the less stable they are and more energetically they burn. And getting them wet is a bad idea, too.

The faster you charge a battery, the shorter it’s lifespan. The higher the operating environment, the shorter the lifespan. The more times you cycle a battery, the shorter the lifespan. So there is no way to predict how long a battery will last in an electric vehicle.

And I believe that a battery that can be charged in a few minutes and last as long as an IC motor will be invented just as soon as a working commercial fusion reactor goes on line. They’ve been working on both about the same amount of time.

You can easily fly on airplanes with lithium ion batteries. Laptops, iPads, headphones, battery banks, no problem.

But also, you can't fly with gasoline either.

Two things are already close to happening: solid state batteries, and closed loop battery recycling.

A solid state battery will increase storage density and range past the magic 500 mile mental barrier, and will give a super fast charging rate--some theoretical estimates of 80% charge in 5 minutes.

A closed loop, near lossless recycling system (one that doesn't require incinerating the battery and collecting the raw materials from what's left) will make battery wear and tear less of an issue. A used battery will have value as recyclable material, and a new battery will cost less to produce. At some point, cars will be designed to have their power packs serviceable.

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Originally posted by Anubismp:
What is the current charge time from near empty to full charge for both standard and supercharging?

Charging from near empty to full takes significantly longer than charging from 20% to 80%. Charge rate slows to a trickle as you approach capacity.

Charging a Telsa Model 3 standard range from a regular 120v 3 prong plug at 15 amps might take you 24-36 hours depending on ambient temp, and charge state. With a 220v 40amp charger, that might take 8 hours from empty to full.

A 150kw Supercharger will take you from 20% to 80% in 20 minutes.

In the real world, the charging is all computer controlled. If you show up at a supercharger with a warm battery at 30%, you'll find that your charging rate is going to be different than showing up at the supercharger with a 70% charge on hand.

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Originally posted by snwghst:
... There is a Canadian company PDAC (is stock ticker) who is developing next generation recycling capabilities

That stock symbol doesn't check out. What's the name of the company?

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Originally posted by mark123:

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Originally posted by snwghst:
... There is a Canadian company PDAC (is stock ticker) who is developing next generation recycling capabilities

That stock symbol doesn't check out. What's the name of the company?

Odd

Peridot Acquisition Corp

PDAC isn't the only one though. ABML and AQMS also have recycling tech in the works. All have their risks and are highly speculative right now.

You are making my point. My shitty little Subaru goes nearly 500 miles on a tank. If you are refueling multiple times in a week, ie 30 minutes of fueling is 5-6 fill ups, that is a couple thousand miles a week. Which means you aren’t driving your EV that much because it doesn’t have that kind of range.

If you are driving 2000 miles a week (30 minutes of fueling a gas car) you have to have ICE vehicle. Your EV ain’t gonna cut it. If on the other hand you drive a 100 miles a day and come home and recharge it would make sense. A 100 miles a day isn’t 2000 a week though.

My point and constant annoyance with you EV guys is this pretense that it works for the average person with ONE car, who might live in an apartment, who travels occasionally across large swaths of highway, who lives in hurricane or natural disaster territory, or hell even snowy country that loses power in a blizzard. EV works as a niche car, a second car. There also is this ridiculous undertone that is just absolutely positive that every technical issue will be worked out. This isn’t necessarily so. Technologies hit basic barriers all the time. Battery tech will improve. Will it improve where a battery pack that supplies a 500 mile range, weighs a hundred lbs, and charges in 5 minutes ever happen? You guys who are sold on EV just think it’s a matter of time. Maybe. Maybe not. We are betting a massive segment of our society and our GDP that you are right. If it actually was your money and not the unicorn tax payer, free paper money that we are seeing right now I’m not so sure you all would bet the farm on it working out as you predict. I just wish a modicum of reality and a solid plan going forward would seep into these discussions. Anything that ends with “the tech is just around the corner” is fucking idiotic. You guys act like stock speculators more than practical engineers. Speculative companies that might be able to effectively recycle and reuse these batteries. You guys are betting financially on this succeeding or even not succeeding because money can still be made with loser ideas if the govt backs them. Practicality would say slow down and see what actually develops not what you hope to develop. Ie, what is Plan B if EV doesn’t work out?

On a side note, I own 4 cars because I have a wife and 4 kids. I only really drive mine. Once the last two are out of college and on their own I will be back to own good 2 cars, mine and wife’s. And then an EV might make sense for one of them although I think the hybrid is a much better choice.

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Originally posted by pedropcola:
You are making my point. My shitty little Subaru goes nearly 500 miles on a tank. If you are refueling multiple times in a week, ie 30 minutes of fueling is 5-6 fill ups, that is a couple thousand miles a week. Which means you aren’t driving your EV that much because it doesn’t have that kind of range.

If you are driving 2000 miles a week (30 minutes of fueling a gas car) you have to have ICE vehicle. Your EV ain’t gonna cut it. If on the other hand you drive a 100 miles a day and come home and recharge it would make sense. A 100 miles a day isn’t 2000 a week though.

.

On the contrary. I charge to 100% twice a week because I know I’m going to be driving 300+ miles each day. I do have that range. It was a prerequisite before I’d even start considering one. I get back to the house with 15% left. I start with a full charge every morning, regardless of the day. I don’t even have to stand next to til the pump shuts off. Just plug it in and walk away. Unplug it in the morning

I totally understand your points, but it takes a small change in habits for the EV to work for many. I know it won’t for all, it won’t work in all situations. I do have a 4runner also. Used it almost all this week while my neighborhood has been flooded. Cost more to gas it up 3x than electric charges for the previous 3 months. Parked EV on the highway, high and dry.

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Originally posted by HRK:
Best bet if you get an EV is to lease it for 3 to 5 years, no longer than the warranty, then flip it back to the manufacturing company, then you have zero worries about battery life.

Given the current environment, I think this is likely the best course of action, though understand, you will be paying for virtually the entire value of the EV, because history has shown they have little to no residual value after the lease term.

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Originally posted by Nuclear:
Have you ever noticed you can’t fly with Lithium-ion batteries on planes? That’s because they catch fire and burn quite energetically.

Sure you can. I do it at least 4 times a year, sometimes more.

Here's the TSA regulation:

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/sec...-more-100-watt-hours

Lithium batteries with more than 100 watt hours
Carry On Bags: Yes (Special Instructions)
Checked Bags: No
Lithium batteries with more than 100 watt hours may be allowed in carry-on bags with airline approval. One spare battery, not exceeding 300 watt hours, or two spare batteries, not exceeding 160 watt hours each, are permitted in carry-on bags. For more information, see the FAA regulations on batteries.

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/pac.../more_info/?hazmat=7

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Power Banks, Cell phone battery charging cases, rechargeable and non-rechargeable lithium batteries, cell phone batteries, laptop batteries, power banks, external batteries, portable rechargers

Spare (uninstalled) lithium ion and lithium metal batteries, including power banks and cell phone battery charging cases, must be carried in carry-on baggage only. When a carry-on bag is checked at the gate or at planeside, all spare lithium batteries and power banks must be removed from the bag and kept with the passenger in the aircraft cabin. The battery terminals must be protected from short circuit.

This covers spare lithium metal and spare rechargeable lithium ion batteries for personal electronics such as cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, tablets, watches, calculators, etc. This also includes external battery chargers (portable rechargers) containing a lithium ion battery. For lithium batteries that are installed in a device (laptop, cell phone, camera, etc.), see the entry for "portable electronic devices, containing batteries" in this chart.

Size limits: Lithium metal (non-rechargeable) batteries are limited to 2 grams of lithium per battery. Lithium ion (rechargeable) batteries are limited to a rating of 100 watt hours (Wh) per battery. These limits allow for nearly all types of lithium batteries used by the average person in their electronic devices. With airline approval, passengers may also carry up to two spare larger lithium ion batteries (101-160 Wh) or Lithium metal batteries (2-8 grams). This size covers the larger after-market extended-life laptop computer batteries and some larger batteries used in professional audio/visual equipment.

Quantity limits: None for most batteries – but batteries must be for use by the passenger. Batteries carried for further sale or distribution (vendor samples, etc.) are prohibited. There is a limit of two spare batteries per person for the larger lithium ion batteries described above (101-160 watt hours per battery).

Batteries must be protected from damage.

I would consider an EV of any manufacturer when I runs 450 miles and can be recharged from empty to full in 5 minutes.

Until then I will stick with my reliable Tacoma and it’s network of gas stations around the entire country.

Do I like the concept of an EV? Yes. Do I buy the argument that it reduces carbon emissions? No. All you have done is shift the location if the carbon conversion go a generating source that may be less efficient than your car.

It’s a novelty right now and years away from being ready for prime time.

^^^^^^^
So what you're saying is the ENTIRE concept of being "Carbon Neutral" is a fallacy and a bunch of bull squirt????



[/sarcasm]

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
You are making my point. My shitty little Subaru goes nearly 500 miles on a tank. If you are refueling multiple times in a week, ie 30 minutes of fueling is 5-6 fill ups, that is a couple thousand miles a week. Which means you aren’t driving your EV that much because it doesn’t have that kind of range.

If you are driving 2000 miles a week (30 minutes of fueling a gas car) you have to have ICE vehicle. Your EV ain’t gonna cut it. If on the other hand you drive a 100 miles a day and come home and recharge it would make sense. A 100 miles a day isn’t 2000 a week though.

15-30 minutes a week of fueling is 2 or 3 fill ups. If I'm pulling off the highway to get fuel, it's gonna take more than five minutes to trigger a stoplight or two, manuever to an open pump, run a credit card, pump, manuever out of the station and back into traffic, and wait on a stoplight or two to get back on the highway.

I don't live at a gas station. If I have to fill up the wife's car for her, then I'm having to make a separate trip out for her vehicle.

Today, I drove the 2012 Honda Odyssey 837 miles in 11 hours and 55 minutes including stopping for gas just south of Macon. I filled up a second time when I stopped for the day. If not for a good 30 minutes wasted in traffic jams, I would have gone 870 miles. I got 24.6 miles per gallon.

Where's the 7 passenger electric car that can do that?

Whatever. If you need 30 minutes for 2 fill ups I don’t know what to tell you. I literally pass multiple gas stations in my town going anywhere. You are being obtuse and finding reasons to justify your argument. You have bought into EV, I get it, you will push this argument regardless of its realistic viability and timeline.

I grew up in California and unless they removed all the gas stations in your town you should be able to fill up multiple times in the time it takes you to get one 80% charge if you have to travel anywhere. So let’s see, I drive down to about a quarter tank, that 400 miles and I’ve still got 4 gallons of reserve, just in case. Best Tesla has what? 400 miles range? Your recharge gets you to 80%. That means a 30 minute lunch break fill up is really not 400 miles but in reality 320 miles. Give yourself the same quarter tank reserve because well, shit happens, and you lose another 100 miles. Leaves you with a real range of220 miles on the freeway unless you are willing to drive down to E.

Commuter car. Second car. No actual realistic timeline to fix this. The technology for some of this doesn’t even exist.

Like I said before, a rational discussion almost never exists once you say the magical words “EV”.

Why are the EV companies not working on fuel cell cars? They run off of hydrogen and fuel can be made from water....