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Age Quod Agis |
I have taken to reading The Liberal Patriot. It's a newsletter published on Substack by co-editors John Halpin, Ruy Teixeira, Peter Juul, and Brian Katulis for the purpose of reviving classical, center left, American politics. I understand that some of you may think "why the fuck would you do that" and the answer is, that this brand of American liberalism has historically been the counterpoint to classical conservatism. These two forces have been the engine that have driven America to be the most successful, wealthy, powerful, and influential power that the world has ever seen. And we need more of this point of view, not less of it, to counter the pernicious effects of a growing American Left. This is a conservative board, and we have driven many liberal members away. We are poorer for it. Tightly reasoned policy persciptions and honed arguments do not come from residing in an echo chamber. They come from engaging with well meaning opponents with differing views, and seeking to both understand, but also to convince, the other of the merits of a position. America will always have a center left. The key is to defeat the far left, and to deal effectively with the center left. The writers of The Liberal Patriot, and the large portion of the country that their views reflect are not our enemies. They are our neighbors, co-workers, friends, fellow parishioners, and often, our children. We do ourselves and our cause no favors by consigning those to our left who love America, and who wish to see her prosper to the same hell to which we condemn the far left, Antifa, CRT, the Woke, and modern progressivism. They are not the same people, and they do not hold the same opinions or propose the same policies. Americans of good conscience must find a way to engage with, live with, and find common ground with, those with whom we do not see directly eye-to-eye. Our survival as a nation depends on good faith engagement with our political opponents. These people need our support and engagement to defeat those to their left, and not feel that they are voiceless, alone in the wilderness. They need to know that they won't be cancelled, that there is a vast America who will engage with them, and contest good faith arguments in the national interest. In view of opening what I hope becomes a series of discussions on rebuilding a common vision of America, I offer the following on Epictetus, a Stoic philosopher, who's works have been recently re-translated, for discussion. I look forward to a robust discussion. Please don't "TLDR, liberals suck, we can never trust them or deal with them, they don't have "good faith", fuck them" in this thread. If that's your opinion, start your own thread. The Liberal Patriot
"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | ||
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The success of a solution usually depends upon your point of view |
center left. They are our neighbors, co-workers, friends, fellow parishioners, and often, our children. our left who love America, and who wish to see her prosper They are not the same people, and they do not hold the same opinions or propose the same policies You've described a close friend of of over 50 years. We met when we were on swim team in the 6 and under group and have been close friends ever since. She lives in Berkley, CA and is a best described as a center left liberal. We just spent 5 days together including 2 days of just us driving from PA to FL and We talked about ever subject under the sun including politics. We never argued and agreed to disagree on a few things but we found out that we are closer on many issues then we would have thought. I don't think that we converted each other on any issues but we did find a lot of common ground. It made me realize that when we talk about the silent majority it is not a group on the right but it is the group in the middle. “We truly live in a wondrous age of stupid.” - 83v45magna "I think it's important that people understand free speech doesn't mean free from consequences societally or politically or culturally." -Pranjit Kalita, founder and CIO of Birkoa Capital Management | |||
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Member |
Hmmm... If there are in fact a large group of center lefts, why havent we heard more about them and from them? End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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Member |
^^^^ Intimidated by what we've all seen happen to "extreme MAGA Republicans"? I'd bet they're not accessing alternative media sources so they're getting a full on scary and threatening message from the usual suspects. Set the controls for the heart of the Sun. | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
Because they are keeping their heads down, afraid of being abused, doxxed, shouted down, and ostracized based on their deviation from leftist dogma. Pew Research https://www.pewresearch.org/po...09/progressive-left/ estimates that only 6% of the population, and only 12% of Dems/Lean Dem are true lefties. The problem for us, and everyone else is, they make all the noise, and have captured the heights of culture in Hollywood, the major universities, many school systems, the major news sources (both traditional and new media), certain state governments, and as street protestors. Consequently, their voice is heard far above their numbers, and their influence is felt far beyond their real reach. They are committed, but small. The center left do not want their jobs, livelihood, children, and property put at risk by offending those who are willing to use public pressure, and even violence to get their way. They need support against a common foe. By engaging with the sane liberal, the center left, we have an opportunity to support the movement of the country back to a rational center, and win on the margins as we have been doing in Florida, and other center right states. Florida isn't where it is by rejecting the center left, it is where it is by supporting the center left against the crazy left. Many DeSantis policies have significant support from rational democrats because they can't stand where the left wing of their party is driving them. We improve our position, and even gain support and members as principled conservatives by engaging positively with the center left. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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Member |
Well maybe the center left liberals need to grow a backbone and confront the more radical extremists to the left of them. Their silence is just aiding and abetting the radical left. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
The problem with center left liberals is not so much with their beliefs, for rational discussion can be had over differences of opinion with a liberal. The larger issue is rather that, by and large, they continue to support the radical left and the radical leftist agenda with their votes. That is the challenge that needs to be overcome... ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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The Ice Cream Man |
Whatever the grade of socialist, they always end up putting a madman in power. Wilson, FDR, Stalin, Hitler. Once “people” become “chattel,” they have rejected the humanity of others. It may be possible to discuss it with them, they may be willing to conceal their more monstrous impulses - they may even be classical liberals, who do belong in America, but think being “green” means being Democrat - and nothing inherently wrong with a “green” philosophy. But once someone embraces enslaving others for purposes other than maintaining social order/slightly enslaving the entire populace for civic investment, they’ve stopped being human. | |||
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Don't Panic |
In case anyone might have missed this in the OP People of good conscience getting engaged with the ideas of Epictetus is a good thing.
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Peace through superior firepower |
Reading this, most members who really know me in my capacity as forum admin will be inclined to say "Oh, Para isn't going to like reading this." You would have no reason to think otherwise. Artie's comment- which I happen to acknowledge- stems from a long conversation he and I had a few nights ago. One of the subjects of the conversation was the decreased amount of new content being posted. As I have mentioned a few times recently- without new content, this board will become a desert. With less new content, we will have fewer visitors, since there will be less to read, and this will in turn further reduce the amount of new content. The result will be that in time, the board will dry up and eventually die. Thinking back about the left-of-center members we've lost over the past few years, most of it seems to have been related to their open hatred of Donald Trump or, before Trump, their hatred of conservative ideas. Regular members will recall that we've had members like 46and2, who was and is welcome here, but after SCOTUS took up Roe v. Wade, he told us he was leaving to go out into the world to fight for women's reproductive rights, like he was fucking Kwai Chang Caine from the old TV series Kung Fu. Ridiculous. However, yes, there have been some leftist members who were flat run off by yours truly, but always for cause. Nevertheless, gone is gone and after they are gone, there is no discussion/debate to be had. I appreciate Artie's efforts with the creation of this thread, and we- that is, I- need to become more tolerant and less reactionary of leftist ideas in the forum. I will point out that no one wants to listen those who will not listen to them, and the Trump haters we've seen come and go since 2015 are not willing to listen to anyone who doesn't share their feelings towards the man. But, there are people who are left of center who will actually engage in a give-and-take, and we should adjust our approach the next time they come around, if ever. Feel free to remind me of this post should you see me failing to heed my own suggestions. Actual political discussions are but one aspect of the content of this forum, and we need more of everything, guns included. For active participants of this forum, and especially for those who truly love this little island of sanity, I urge you to take my comments to heart. | |||
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Member |
Probably because the center left/right gets tired of being yelled at by the extreme and vocal ends of the political spectrum. ___________________________________________ "Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?" -Dr. Thaddeus Venture | |||
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Tenacious Tempestuous with Integrity |
ArtieS : Thank you for posting this very important and thought provoking thread. I have read this thread several times,and would hope that ALL Sigforum members would take a few minutes and do the same. Obviously our political and personal views are important to us. the 1st page of the Lounge has about half of the threads that are politically motivated or related. If we would all just take a few deep breaths, step back for a few minutes before posting replies to a thread that we do not agree with, maybe that would let us reconsider our thoughts. ArtieS: I am very interested in reading The Liberal Patriot. Have you been bombarded with unwanted bullshit since you subscribed to the publication? Para: Thanks for checking into this thread as the forum administrator. I do not want to hijack the thread,but perhaps it is important enough to be considered for a Sticky so it remains visible on The Lounge 1st page. | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
^^^^^ I don't really know if I've been subjected to too much BS after subscribing, because I opened a special gmail account for all of my subsciptions. If I signup for something, I use that special account only, thus, it takes all the BS and I can safely ignore it, focusing only on that which I care about. All that said, I have not noticed it to be a lot of crap. If you are interested, you should also check out Substack.com for Glenn Greenwald, Matt Tiabbi, and Bari Weiss. All liberals, all exceptionally smart, all interested in a better civilization for ALL of us. I was lead to this content by being a regular user of www.realclearpolitics.com, an aggregator site that has a decent balance between right, center and left. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast |
The stoics have had a profound impact on my life and how I interact with others. Their teachings have also changed the way I look at life and the way I think about problems. I came across the brilliance of Seneca, Epictetus, Zeno, and Marcus Aurelius during what I would characterize as a difficult time in my life. Their thoughts on happiness, political discourse and what it is to live a good life is something everyone should read regardless of political orientation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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Domari Nolo |
You can replace "left" with "right", and replace "liberals" with "conservatives" in that sentence, and still have an accurate statement. | |||
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Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Yes, and thank you. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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More light than heat |
I loves me some Stoics. I have on occasion been known to send a copy of the Enchiridion to friends of mine going through a hard time. It’s always well received. _________________________ "Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, so far as I have been able to see, is that it spans change. A young person sees the world as a still picture, immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more changes and still more changes so many times that that he knows it is a moving picture, forever changing. He may not like it--probably doesn't; I don't--but he knows it's so, and knowing is the first step in coping with it." Robert Heinlein | |||
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Peace through superior firepower |
Jesus, Mary and Joseph. We thought you wuz dead, Milliron. Good to see you, 'long as you ain't no zombay... We've been maintainin' your cat thread in your absence. | |||
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Member |
^^^^ A legacy to be proud for sure. The perfect thread to reappear in, Milliron. Set the controls for the heart of the Sun. | |||
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Coin Sniper |
I have always felt it's healthy to have opposing views. That is one of the basic premises that this country was founded on. Your most fundamental freedoms is the right to choose. Opposing views should be listened to, considered, and compared with your own views. Only then can you make an informed decision. I'm not very tolerant of people who demand I agree with their views without question. If I'm willing to question my own, I'm certainly questioning yours. I have even less tolerance for anyone who screams at me or calls me names for not agreeing with them. Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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