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| Member |
After reading this: https://www.ainonline.com/avia...on-system-under-fire And this: https://theaircurrent.com/avia...o-its-737-max-fleet/ I have to think that Trump was DEAD ON with his Twitter comments. I am NOT a certified 737 pilot So you tell me that this isn't a problem with complex avionics that a pilot couldn't properly override. I believe this was Trumps point wasn't it? I had about the same reaction when I first read his tweets. After reading the referenced articles I realized that Trump may have been way ahead of me on this........... Remember, this is all supposed to be for fun................... | |||
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Member |
I’m a big fan of Boeing, but President Trump wouldn’t have made this decision without their input. Boeing made the mistake of relying on one sensor on the plane and it’s apparently bit them in the ass. ——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1 | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Yes, the CEO of Boeing said that he and Boeing are in agreement with the President's decision to ground the planes "out of an abundance of caution." As said before, the political pressure just became too much. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent  |
Except they rejected the Ethiopian request, stating that they are not equipped to read the new software and flight recorders of the 737 Max. I guess after all of the current huffing and puffing for the public is through, the boxes will still go to the US. | |||
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| Member |
All the huffing and puffing only serve to delay the reading of the boxes. Just "FedEx overnight" the darn things! Geez. | |||
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A Grateful American |
My take was if Trump's admin had not grounded them and, God forbid, and American carrier had a mishap, it would have been all manner of screeching from the audience. And I also believe the admin would have been in direct and serious discussion with Boeing. Things like this are 3D chess on the world stage, and well in his place to get involved. And I believe he is smart enough to talk to the people in charge and in authority and not unilaterally step or over-reach. I certainly hope Boeing makes it through this storm. It touches a lot of people's lives and livelihoods in places many cannot fathom. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Member |
No, they didn't move the wings. They moved the engines up and forward because of their increased size. This had some negative effect on stability at high power and/or high AOA which required the new MCAS system to help provide nose down pitch authority to prevent a stall or aid in recovery. There is no issue in hand flying the Max, in fact it handles much more smoothly than the NG because of better control rigging and FBW spoilers. Now of course I have not handled one near the limits of low airspeed/high AOA, we don't even have any Max simulators yet to train to the limits of the airplane. We know from the Lion Air accident that previous crews experienced similar problems to the flight that crashed, and in at least one case info has come to light that the crew did correctly disable the stab trim and regained control. In fact they even continued with their scheduled leg as the checklist does not direct the crew to terminate the flight early with a pitch trim malfunction. So while it is still too soon to say for sure, it certainly appears that the accident Lion Air crew and this Ethiopian crew failed to cutoff the stab trim and ended up fighting the aircraft until they crashed. The what happened will be the easy part, the human factors vs aircraft design vs training vs experience will be a very interesting investigation for sure. Mongo only pawn in game of life... | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
I don't blame the President for making this decision at all. He in effect had no choice. With every other country doing it, and, like you said, if something were to now go wrong, he'd be toast. So he had to. That doesn't change my opinion though that on the global scale, this is all unnecessary and an overreaction. But admittedly, that's very easy for me to say sitting here in my stateroom recliner without having to worry about people's lives dependent on the decisions I make. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Yeah there was no option or upside to not grounding by Trump. Besides its a relatively small number of planes affected. | |||
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Corgis Rock |
Just listened to John Nance the ABC “aviation expert.” His point is that the Lion Air crash was due to pilot training and not the aircraft. He goes to to say it the Ethiopian crash is due to pilot training there’s no reason to ground the airplane. Meanwhile the Boeing plant in Renton is still producing aircraft. One issue is that the airfield will run out of space unless aboeing is allowed to fly the aircraft elsewhere. “ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull. | |||
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| Knowing is Half the Battle |
How often do one of these leave the factory? One a week? One a month? I can't imagine they go rolling out of there in streams like Silverados. Also, my guess is the grounding won't last more than a couple of weeks. Regarding the pilot training, I'd rather not fly in a plane where the pilot has to be trained to prevent the plane from purposely crashing itself. I'd prefer the plane not purposely crash itself and the pilot concentrate on more important things, like most economical fuel burn rate, peanut consumption, and passenger soda inflow and urine outflow to maximize profit potential and reduce ticket price by $1.67. | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Weeks? Jesus, i sure hope they're not grounded for weeks. I was thinking days. I mean, what are we talking here? Billions in losses for Boeing? And how much for the airlines like Southwest who operate something like 38 MAX 8's? Personally, I think countries like China and France and the EU as a whole used these accidents as an opportunity to hurt Boeing and the US. And they've succeeded. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Member |
https://www.flightglobal.com/n...ction-rate-h-451853/ ____________________________________________________ The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart. | |||
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Member |
I would imagine that the Feds would allow ferry permits to reposition aircraft, and move them around as necessary. They use to do 2 engine ferry permits on the 727. "Hold my beer.....Watch this". | |||
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| Member |
What percentage of operating 737s are Max 8/9? I read 371 produced thus far and a quarter of those in the US. So, they are idled for a few weeks while they figure this out. My guess this is more a political?PR move. However, I'm happy my return flight tomorrow is on a non-Max 8/9 with Southwest. P229 | |||
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| A Grateful American |
With more than 5,000 orders (and Boeing "banking" on that) and 350 delivered, this has the potential to be crushing to Boeing business. As I said earlier, this is a large and far reaching issue that can have repercussions across a lot of people's paths. Ripples. Gonna be some ripples. And if it is a "what we know/knew and when we knowed/knewed it" that points back to folks who could have/should have stepped up and did not, then that is one thing. If it becomes a smear and gutting for the sake of selling soap, shame on all that bring that. I desire the truth, over anything else. (and, yeah, I can handle the truth...) "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Doin' what I can with what I got  |
OMFG I just spit beer. Your satire of SD Pilot Threads - which I too love reading - just won the thread. While simultaneously performing a thread drift. And possibly inverted. ---------------------------------------- Death smiles at us all. Be sure you smile back. | |||
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| Member |
Despite the claims to the contrary, I very much doubt that the FAA's position was on the edict of trump; if so it would set a very dangerous precedent in which a man who made one of the most ignorant tweets of the year about aviation could make decisions best left to professionals. There's no doubt that the lions share of this action is emotional and political, given that the means already exists to interrupt trim action on any 737, including the Max-8. Typical accident investigation takes about one year from beginning to report, sometimes longer; doubtless the "fix" will come much sooner. I was supposed to be flying on a Max-8 this morning, but when I arrived at the gate it had been subbed out for a 737-800, and I was told that the Max had been suspended. I was also told that the gate agents had been flooded with queries. On arrival at the destination, numerous news cameras were in play in the baggage area, interviewing travelers; the media is milking it for all its worth.
There was no one-upmanship there; though you missed the point. Regarding the question of the manufacturer data provided to pilots, examples were given of other cases of incorrect manufacturer data with regard to procedures, which is very much on topic for the thread. Boeing did fail to provide data and training on the system, something critical in differences training for the 737 Max-8. Whether that was a contributing factor here is yet to be determined, but it's been among the chief concerns from a pilot's perspective, and it's not an isolated case. It happens, and in some cases, like the example 210, those errors were not corrected for several decades. Potentially contributing is pilot experience and training, and the impact either may have had on these events, as well as the potential that these events were conducted through automation instead of the procedure for a stab trim runaway; cutout switches are provided. If indeed the crew flew the airplane through the autopilot instead of disconnecting and hand-flying, it adds another layer to the question which further complicates discussion. The 737 Max-8's engines were placed forward create a center of gravity shift, and a greater pitch-up moment when power is applied, hence MCAS; despite the public frenzy, the MCAS system trims using normal stabilizer trim and does so at a slow rate of only 1/3 degree/second. It's not the only aircraft to apply correction based on airspeed or angle of attack input. What makes this unique among the Boeing products is lack of a control column switch to interrupt trim if the pilot applies control input opposite the trim, and the normal means of interruption only does so for a few seconds before trimming starts again...something that does not occur on other Boeing products. It doesn't sound like much (just as the 210 example doesn't sound like much), but in aviation, details matter. A lot. | |||
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| Member |
Having 2 nearly new airplanes crash within 5 months of each other where weather isn't any part of the equation, is definitely cause for concern. | |||
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| Dances With Tornados |
This probably doesn’t apply at all to the topic at hand but I just remembered something that JAllen, our departed and esteemed elder statesman here, wrote more than once. Referring to his learning to fly, he stated numerous times that one of his flight trainers said, more than once, that his job was to loan Jim some of his experience to keep Jim alive until he learned enough experience of his own. I’ve always remembered that and applied it to other situations and people I’ve advised. Sure do miss ol’ Jim and his postings. | |||
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