Ethiopian Airlines crash – black box found

March 11, 2019, 06:15 PM

^^^^^^What he said. It’s 5 seconds but close enough. We can sling acronyms all day and say that Boeing never mentioned them but they have a pretty good rejoinder. Runaway trim or trim in the opposite direction you want is covered in the books. If the guy next to me has 200 hours, I have to think they are talking total hours, that is mind numbingly scary.

If that is true, unconfirmed as yet, unless he was some kind of prodigy, when this event happened he was probably next to useless. I can’t believe an airline would put together this scenario on purpose. Except for that pesky third world thing again.

I am flying a Max tomorrow. I can honestly tell you I have zero qualms about its safety.

Btw, if the FAA grounded these over public outcry the entire system is broken. If that is the case we should put out Airworthiness Directives via Facebook polling. They can and should ground them with actual evidence of a problem not public hysteria.

March 11, 2019, 06:46 PM

erj_pilot

quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
If the guy next to me has 200 hours, I have to think they are talking total hours, that is mind numbingly scary.

That's the issue with every one of these foreign carriers that train their new-hires in "ab initio" programs. You get these 200-hour wonders that JUST got the U.S. equivalency of their Commercial/Multi and they get thrown in the right seat of a Part 121 jet aircraft.

When I was instructing many moons ago, I once had a student from Pakistan that was about as bright as a 2.5w dashboard bulb. His "objective" was to get his Commercial/Multi here in the states and then he'd go over to PIA (Pakistani International Airways) where his brother (a 737 Captain) would sponsor him as a new-hire. Essentially, he'd get some limited training to get his Pakistani-level 737 type rating and then he'd get thrown in the right seat. I'm here to tell you, this dude couldn't fly from Hooks airport to Montgomery County airport (both in NW Houston) without getting lost...on a crystal clear day with CAVU. It took him 100 hours to get his private and he tried to sue. Short story is, his attorney took one look at his training notebook, softly closed it, and apologized for wasting our time. I just hope the INS eventually caught up with that Pakistani sunuvabitch because he stopped flight training and was therefore in the country illegally, but I digress.

"If you’re a leader, you lead the way. Not just on the easy ones; you take the tough ones too…” – MAJ Richard D. Winters (1918-2011), E Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil... Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel." - Isaiah 5:20,24

March 11, 2019, 06:52 PM

mrw

I am posting this while sitting in seat 3F on the ground of a Southwest 737 Max8. I have no worries at all, been hopping around about every week on one of the Max8s. We will see in about 15 minutes, signing off, door is closing

March 11, 2019, 09:34 PM

saigonsmuggler

How's Ethiopian airlines reputation? My brother told me that they're the premier airlines in Africa but I don't know whether that's customer service or safety record. Asiana airlines for example had a great reputation with customer service but not necessarily pilot quality.

March 11, 2019, 09:39 PM

sns3guppy

quote:
Originally posted by erj_pilot:

That's the issue with every one of these foreign carriers that train their new-hires in "ab initio" programs. You get these 200-hour wonders that JUST got the U.S. equivalency of their Commercial/Multi and they get thrown in the right seat of a Part 121 jet aircraft.

Common throughout the world.

Most of the domestic flying public was blissfully unaware for a long time that the regionals hired 250 hour pilots with wet certificates and hardly enough sense to open a door, for sub-poverty wages.

Ironically, the new-hires to the regionals are screaming bloody murder today when they need to meet ATP minimums with 1,500 hours, and the regionals have been crying and whining about having to pay out to get them, and for the non-existent, mythical "pilot shortage" created by their prior bad hiring practices.

March 11, 2019, 09:51 PM

RHINOWSO

quote:
Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
My brother told me that they're the premier airlines in Africa...

Kinda like saying she's the best whore of the brothel...

March 11, 2019, 10:25 PM

Surefire

quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
My brother told me that they're the premier airlines in Africa...

Kinda like saying she's the best whore of the brothel...

Perhaps look at their record, vs whatever you’d like to call that statement.

March 11, 2019, 10:34 PM

Jager

Worldwide pilot shortage will continue to bring these low hour pilots to airlines over the globe.

All kinds of skill sets:

Back to Bombay!

I'm personally shocked that 157 people, mostly first world, were in Ethiopia to begin with.

I'm saying this one was terrorism.

It was smoking and banging while it was still in the air.

The planes are fine.

March 12, 2019, 12:49 AM

sns3guppy

There's no pilot shortage, domestically or worldwide.

Low-experience pilots have been the norm for decades around the globe, including Europe.

March 12, 2019, 12:52 AM

furlough

OK, Jager:

Why are you shocked that people are from First World countries?

I've been to Ethiopia, as have many of my friends.

And after Ethiopia, Kenya is where you want to go! (for safaris, anyway)

Let's wait and see what happened.

I'm betting on Boeing implementing some new trim and anti-stall system is WAY more suspicious than whatever group is out of....

March 12, 2019, 12:57 AM

furlough

quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
There's no pilot shortage, domestically or worldwide.

Low-experience pilots have been the norm for decades around the globe, including Europe.

Sorry dude, I know you from here and I respect all of your posts about flying but I have to call you out on this one.

The pilot shortage is real, and I see it here in the US, in Europe and in Asia.

March 12, 2019, 01:55 AM

sns3guppy

Call away.

I've been doing this for a little while now (nearly four decades), everywhere but antarctica, and I've been hearing about the impending pilot shortage just as long. It's yet to happen.

There have certainly been periods of increased hiring and periods of mass scale furloughs, but right now no major or national airline, no flag carrier, is suffering for lack of pilots, or lack of applicants. They all have FAR more applicants than they need.

Regionals, entry level jobs, were caught in a bit of a lurch; they'd been lowballing and scraping off the bottom so long with zero-experience pilots for so long, and paying sub-poverty wages, that when the hiring minimums were raised to 1,500 hours (ATP minimums), there was a disparity between their standard brand-new pilot hire and what they were required to hire: thank the improved standards in the aftermath of the Colgan crash at Buffalo.

There's a self-imposed demand at the regional level; it's not a problem elsewhere.

Around the globe, it's just not a problem. There's no pilot shortage.

There has been a shortage of pilots willing to prostitute themselves or accept substandard wages, which is a problem that the regionals created for themselves; it doesn't equate to a pilot shortage. That myth was floated by Kit Darby for years, and was always untrue, but was always just around the corner.

There's no pilot shortage.

March 12, 2019, 04:30 AM

tacfoley

quote:
Originally posted by Jager:
I'm personally shocked that 157 people, mostly first world, were in Ethiopia to begin with.

Most of the Canadians and many of the others on board were delegates going to a UN World Health Care conference in Nairobi.

Part 1 of the conference had been in Addis Ababa.

March 12, 2019, 05:11 AM

sns3guppy

quote:
Originally posted by Jager:

I'm personally shocked that 157 people, mostly first world, were in Ethiopia to begin with.

Ever been?

March 12, 2019, 06:10 AM

V-Tail

quote:
Originally posted by erj_pilot:

That's the issue with every one of these foreign carriers that train their new-hires in "ab initio" programs. You get these 200-hour wonders that JUST got the U.S. equivalency of their Commercial/Multi and they get thrown in the right seat of a Part 121 jet aircraft.

A 200 hour "pilot" in a 737?

In the U.S.A., 200 hours would not qualify for any kind of commercial flying, not under Part 121, not under Part 135, not even under Part 91 (example of commercial flying under Part 91: getting paid to ferry a Cessna 150, or even a J-3 Cub, to or from a maintenance facility).

The absolute minimum for a commercial certificate here in the U.S. is 250 hours, not 200 hours. For those who want a reference, look at FAR 61.129, it can be found on the faa.gov website.

This 200 hour pilot would not have been legal under U.S. regulations, even before the change that became effective on August 1, 2014.

March 12, 2019, 06:24 AM

Balzé Halzé

quote:
Originally posted by Jager:

I'm personally shocked that 157 people, mostly first world, were in Ethiopia to begin with.

As others already alluded to, it's not really that surprising. I've run into quite a few people internationally, partcularly passing through Charles de Gaul, who were coming from or heading to Nairobi. In fact, when I first heard about this crash, I guessed there would be quite a few Americans onboard. And though I myself have never actually flown to Ethiopia or Kenya, I have flown regionally in and around South Africa while visiting Cape Town and heading to Safari.

March 12, 2019, 06:39 AM

104RFAST

When you talk about a Pilot shortage it depends on what you are looking for. Yes there is a shortage of Pilots with
4000 hrs and type rated for any particular Jet you may be operating. On the other hand there are hundreds of pilots
looking for work with less than 500 hrsTT. ICAO requires both pilots be type rated in the aircraft, I cant believe
the FO had only 200 hrs and a SIC rating in the 737. Third world airlines have for years been putting very low time
pilots in the right seat fresh out of training.
Major US carrier's do not hire 200 or even 1000 hr pilots.

March 12, 2019, 08:17 AM

braillediver

quote:
Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge

https://www.reuters.com/articl...plunge-idUSKBN1QS1LJ

March 12, 2019, 08:28 AM

Georgeair

quote:
Originally posted by braillediver:
quote:
Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge

https://www.reuters.com/articl...plunge-idUSKBN1QS1LJ

Panicked cows. Turn close to ground. "Barley and wheat"- riggggght.

quote:
Malka Galato, 47, a barley and wheat farmer whose field the plane crashed in, also described smoke and sparks from the back. “The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn... Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic,” he said.

March 12, 2019, 08:32 AM

V-Tail

quote:
Originally posted by mrw:
I am posting this while sitting in seat 3F on the ground of a Southwest 737 Max8. I have no worries at all, been hopping around about every week on one of the Max8s. We will see in about 15 minutes, signing off, door is closing

Did you survive?