quote:

Tolls being skipped is a bit like shoplifting.

Unless you have no gas tax, no vehicle property tax, or no vehicle sales tax, I disagree with the analogy. Here in MO we pay all those taxes - with the gas tax here being specifically dedicated to road and bridge. I've already paid. It would only be like shoplifting if I was stealing in a store where I'd already paid for everything.

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Originally posted by PASig:

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Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

Some drivers have power-washed paint off their plates

I think people here in PA are starting to do that. I'll see license plates where half the paint is gone on a regular basis.

Must be the norm for PA where half the road is gone on a regular basis (either washed out or under repair)!

Tolls collected by states are legalized extortion. Tax dollars are supposed to pay for the roads. I imagine if you looked at where each dollar went, you would find they fund all manner of projects that have nothing to do with driving. On the odd occasion where I have to go to Dulles airport, or surrounding burbs, I avoid the greenway like the plague.

and lets not even talk about parking meters - again we've already paid for the roads, and they're charging us again to use it....

we should have a national effort to chop down ever parking meter in existence - all in one night

^^^
We’re gonna need a bunch of Cool Hand Luke’s…

Went to NYC for business last year. Stayed just over the river in North Bergen in NJ. After tracking into the city a few days in a row. Jesus Christ I'd never live up there in that mess.

I thought Atlanta was bad... Got nothing on that place.

Related I think. I’ve long been amazed at the number of cars I see with the smoked plastic license plate covers. It’s difficult to make out the number if you’re directly behind at a stop sign or light. I would have thought LE would pull these cars over as soon as they see them, but apparently not.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
Tolls collected by states are legalized extortion. Tax dollars are supposed to pay for the roads.

We have kids and grandkids down in Colorado and have to endure I-25 with some frequency. The state is completing a major highway project, largely between Fort Collins and Longmont to make the highway 3 lanes N and S. It’s all going to be Express Toll to use the newly constructed 3rd lane—this after enduring years of construction zones, congestion, lower speed limits. Colorado did the same thing between Castle Rock and Colorado Springs. Infuriating.

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Originally posted by mrvmax:

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Originally posted by nhtagmember:
They’re not out a penny. Not one red cent. What they are out is charging you to use something you already paid for.

Exactly.

Not exactly.

Bridges, tunnels sections of highway etc often are built or renovated through money borrowed through the issuance of bonds, not directly through tax dollars. The bonds and interest are repaid by the tolls on the theory that those who actually use those bridges
etc. pay for them by the tolls.

The graft comes in the awarding of the construction contracts and accompanying kickback bribes but that's another thing entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Tolls collected by states are legalized extortion. Tax dollars are supposed to pay for the roads. I imagine if you looked at where each dollar went, you would find they fund all manner of projects that have nothing to do with driving.

The bridges in CA are a prime example of this. The tolls were supposed to take care of the construction costs, then free afterwards, but government quickly realized they could scam the public into paying for it forever, funding hundreds of employees per bridge, dozens of executives, etc. And this adds to the state AND federal taxes collected each year by these toll collectors.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody that avoids paying for this shit, more power to you.

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Originally posted by TMats:


Related I think. I’ve long been amazed at the number of cars I see with the smoked plastic license plate covers. It’s difficult to make out the number if you’re directly behind at a stop sign or light. I would have thought LE would pull these cars over as soon as they see them, but apparently not.

I see them all over the place too. One guy even had these lights on his license plate that were SO bright, you could not make out that there was even a plate there. Clearly trying to avoid being picked up on some kind of license plate reader camera.

IMO, cops WOULD have pulled you right over for infractions like this a few years ago but I really get the impression that a lot of them are only doing the bare minimum these days and not going above and beyond any longer. Maybe an unintended consequence of all this "defund the police" crap and the general demonization of police in general in modern society?

For the past two years going on my annual family trip to Sandbridge, VA I have not seen the police presence I used to see in VA and it seems like people are driving a little more reckless and fast as a result. 10 years ago the SECOND I crossed the line into VA, I'd keep it right at or a mile under the speed limit because it seemed like there were cops EVERYWHERE there ready to hand out tickets.

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Originally posted by kho:

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Originally posted by mrvmax:

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Originally posted by nhtagmember:
They’re not out a penny. Not one red cent. What they are out is charging you to use something you already paid for.

Exactly.

Not exactly.

Bridges, tunnels sections of highway etc often are built or renovated through money borrowed through the issuance of bonds, not directly through tax dollars. The bonds and interest are repaid by the tolls on the theory that those who actually use those bridges
etc. pay for them by the tolls.

The graft comes in the awarding of the construction contracts and accompanying kickback bribes but that's another thing entirely.

No need to correct me, what I agreed to was correct here. The toll road here was supposed to be free after it was paid for, it’s long after that. If you don’t recognize that it’s a money grab then you’re kidding yourself.

We have the same problem here in Texas. A toll way in Dallas was supposed to be paid for and free years ago. We're still paying, but now it's for maintenance, etc., Yeah right.

If they'd put tax dollars into the areas where they belong (like infrastructure maintenance) instead of wasting them on BS entitlement programs, there would be no need for tolls. Ironically, toll roads also seem to be the worst maintained...they're so bad I usually feel like they ought to be paying me to drive on them. I've had to replace suspension components after driving around Chicago before, and my roommate in college got a piece of rebar sticking up from the road surface through a tire coming back from O'Hare.

Tolls suck. I thankfully live in an area where the only time I have to deal with them is maybe 4 or 5 times a year when I have to drive around Chicago to go west or up to O'Hare, or across the bridge on I-65 in Louisville on the way to Florida. I have the option of paying for an EZPass, which charges me a monthly fee even if I don't use it, and has no provision to suspend it, or if I don't want to do that, I get to pay double or triple the rate for e-mail billing. Then I risk missing it and getting a ticket or suspended for unpaid tolls. And then there's the whole other issue of people I know who got tickets from states they'd never even been to from a camera that mis-read a license plate. It's a giant scam.

The cash toll booths weren't any better, though. I remember travelling to PA to visit my grandparents back when they were still alive and getting stuck every 30-50 miles in 20 minute lines of traffic on the turnpike (another horribly designed and maintained toll road!) waiting to pay at the stupid toll booth, which was like the grocery store with 10 lanes but only 2 open. Sometimes it was downright dangerous because of people flying up behind you at highway speed not expecting to see stopped traffic that far back on extra-busy days or in inclement weather.

The whole concept is idiotic and should be done away with. I obey the law and pay them, and while I don't condone others not doing so, it doesn't personally offend me when they don't.

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Some drivers have power-washed paint off their plates

The NY plates were doing that on their own, manufacturing defect. The state offers and encourages replacement for them, but people don't bother, or intentionally don't for this reason.

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Originally posted by uvahawk:
These liberal states would be better off using transponders affixed to the windshield, such as EZ Pass found in many more southern states.

New England has been using EZ-Pass since they were first introduced. Once they got rid of many toll booths, they had to start with the plate readers. If they read and bill by plate, the toll is a lot more.

" Cost Authorities Millions "
More like saving citizens millions in extortion money.

Some are paid off and tolls removed, the WKY Parkway and Bluegrass Parkway both started in the early 60's had their costs paid off and toll booths removed, WKY in 87 and BG in 91.

State law in KY requires it, perhaps if you have these problem in your states it's the politicians that were elected, not the toll roads/bridges.

Nothing wrong with them as a source of funding or repayment of bonds for construction, better than raising property or sales taxes which never end for anyone.

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Originally posted by mrvmax:

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Originally posted by kho:

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Originally posted by mrvmax:

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Originally posted by nhtagmember:
They’re not out a penny. Not one red cent. What they are out is charging you to use something you already paid for.

Exactly.

Not exactly.

Bridges, tunnels sections of highway etc often are built or renovated through money borrowed through the issuance of bonds, not directly through tax dollars. The bonds and interest are repaid by the tolls on the theory that those who actually use those bridges
etc. pay for them by the tolls.

The graft comes in the awarding of the construction contracts and accompanying kickback bribes but that's another thing entirely.

No need to correct me, what I agreed to was correct here. The toll road here was supposed to be free after it was paid for, it’s long after that. If you don’t recognize that it’s a money grab then you’re kidding yourself.

You may be correct on your specific local example. IDK.

But more generally state, municipal and other government agency infrastructure projects are funded by the issuance of what are known as revenue bonds that often have 30 year maturities. To improve the credit rating and lower interest rate cost of the bonds, they are funded primarily by a dedicated pledged revenue stream, like tolls. These bonds are then often rolled over or refunded with new bonds to pay repairs, improvements and operating costs. So they go on seemingly - or actually - in perpetuity after the original bonds are paid off. That's just how it's done.