quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:

You never actually answered my question (which you have no obligation to do). What year did the Army actually start using the current iteration under the banner of “Army Values”. Not codes, creeds, oaths, values, which have been used for decades but big letter, all green, ARMY VALUES? Once again, it wasn’t as long ago as you like to think for an army that has been around for 200+ years.

Your grandad did not serve in an army that had Army Values. Your dad did not serve in an army that had Army Values. You did. Words have been added and subtracted as they saw fit over those differing iterations and it became capital letter Army Values as you served under. It is similar to how equality quietly became equity. This is how it is done. Slowly, quietly, a bite at a time. These values are absolutely fluid. If they weren’t we would still be quoting what the Continental Army used to say.

Is it the death of the Republic? Nope. It is on the path though. Either way, I’m out. You seem to be convinced and talking to army guys gives Navy guys like me a headache lol so I will bow out to your last word.

I did, 1998 in CFR 690-400, I quoted it above. I also mentioned the historical background and the fact that I opted to show the Army Regulation. FYSA that document dictated that it be put on the Officer Evaluation Form. I went back and check my OERs, sure enough they where there spelled out in the same verbiage, unchanged. When we went to grade plate OERs the forms, the values and their definitions came off the form and the phrase supports the Army Values.

In your post above stated "Cd228, do you know why they haven’t changed much in 18 years? Because they didn’t exist. Go back a little further and feel free to tell us all about the long history of Army Values. Go ahead." I have provide documentable proof that they did exist in those 18 years and have been codified. I did go back further and found that they did exist as far back as 1998. The regulation that I quoted is readily found on the internet and can be found referenced in the Army digital library (ADL). The ADL entry shows which document superseded it. Now, I'll be the first to admit I am not the best at English, but your comment, which I copy and pasted verbatim, reads in a manner that makes me believe that you are stating that the Army Values did not exist in those 18 years. Again, that is a false assertion.

I am aware of the evolution of what has become the Army Values and it's connections to the Articles of War, Von Steubens Attributes, Omar Bradley Westmorland's comments on values, etc. Interestingly enough it's a topic that gets discussed at CGSC. Of note, words like Selfless Service can be found in most of them. But, even in your own comment you recognize that we should not be using the Continental Army's methods. However, as you noticed in my post and referenced in yours, my claim was that the ARMY Values haven't changed in 18 years.

Maybe we have a difference in opinion on what constant change is. To me some thingthat hasn't been changed since 1998 isn't constantly changing.

Here is the history of the USMA Mission:

Ok I lied, I am back.

That document you quoted never mentions Army Values once. It uses the word values. That is it. That is because Army Values wasn't codified as such. There were officer codes, creeds, ethos, values, etc.

As for you quoting that document it talks about 2 forms, 7222 and 7223 (or close to that number). Do you actually know what those forms are before you posted?

They are both civilian employee fitness reports. Not even army. Civilian.

The Army didn't start calling them capital letter "Army Values" in 1998. Try again. Maybe read what you link though.

This is all fancy wordsmithing. Go back in time and find the mission statement for the army or the Navy, you won't find that either because neither had one until some O6 decided that if corporations had mission statements so should the military.
'
My question was when was the first time the army published what is now known as ARMY VALUES using that terminology? It wasn't 1998.

This gives some history. It's a long read, almost 60 pages. Link

quote:

Academy graduates used to be able to clock the 4 years (with an active duty ID) at the Academy as time towards retirement.

When did that change?

It can, however, count toward civil service retirement.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Ok I lied, I am back.

That document you quoted never mentions Army Values once. It uses the word values. That is it. That is because Army Values wasn't codified as such. There were officer codes, creeds, ethos, values, etc.

As for you quoting that document it talks about 2 forms, 7222 and 7223 (or close to that number). Do you actually know what those forms are before you posted?

I Apologize, you are correct that regulation is for civilian employees of the Department of the Army and it refers to them as the DA Values (DA being Department of the Army). The Army Values were codified as the Army Values (Not DA Values)in FM 22-100 August 1999. Unlike the previously mentioned regulation, FM 22-100 also includes the definitions of the values, which match ADP 6-22 1-71 and the OERs I received on DA form 67-9. Therefore The Army Values have been published in an official document unchanged since 1999, or approximately 23 years.

I am the President of a local WP Society in rural Virginia. The Supe sent out an invite to a Zoom call next Tuesday at 7 PM that included himself, the Comm, the Dean, and the presidents of all the WP Societies nation-wide to discuss the change in the mission statement. This is in addition to his letter he sent out a few days ago.

I am not too worried that the institution is suddenly going to change its basic value structure, seeing as how everyone up there grew up under the old one (or even a very old one, for some of us septuagenarians). It does concern me that we suddenly feel like we have to start tinkering around the margins of our basic values every few years. It makes me think we have no consistency in areas where we require consistency and stability. Like values. Having read the Supe's letter, I plan to participate in the Zoom call on Tuesday, but I doubt there will be an earth-shaking news, just wordsmithing to justify a change that wasn't needed.

I probably shouldn’t argue with you over something like this but you keep posting nonsense. You post FM 22-100 as “evidence”. You expect people will accept your word as gospel because you talk acronyms and jargon. All military guys can do that. It doesn’t mean anything if it’s not accurate.

It’s a 96 page document, a field manual. I looked through it. I searched for “values”. I found them. They are on page 34 of 96. They list four (4). Courage, candor, competence, and commitmen. If you look up ARMY VALUES today there are seven (7).

I struggle to have this discussion when you think throwing old manuals and sources that don’t back up your point are being tossed around. You have thrown out meaningless civilian employee fitreps, an Army manual that doesn’t back up your claim, and a bunch of army acronyms that sound important but don’t say what you claim they say.

Page 34 FM 22-100. Please tell us how those four (4) army values codified the seven (7) that are now accepted and it has been unchanged since then. All while miraculously adding three (3) values. It is nonsensical.

Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage Those are the Army Values as defined today. Courage, candor, competence, commitment those are in the field manual you posted FM 22-100. Is it just me or are they not the same?

Now I am actually done because I’m tired of fact checking old army manuals.

Bottom line. None of these “adjustments” that any of the service academies are doing are being done for the right reasons or are necessary. Core values don’t need to change, basically never, because they are core values. We don’t change the atomic number of helium because of social pressures. It stays the same because it is the same. Honor, duty, country. It worked then it works now. Swapping out the words regularly demeans them. We are going the wrong direction as a country. This is just one small indicator.

How long before tolerance, praise and affirmation are Army values?

If I was going to be succinct, which is not my forte lol, it is simple. Core values should never change. Never. Unless their is a seismic shift in America and the world. Ie, space invaders force us to come together as a United Earth to fight a common foe. Short of that, core values are core values. They don’t need to get “massaged” every few years so some staff weenie can get a Army/Navy/AF commendation medal.

And since I’m in rant mode, the branches of the military don’t need mission statements. That is a corporate idea that got sold to the military back in the 90’s when that program took hold (forget its name, very corporate though). We aren’t a corporation nor should many facets be run as such. (Some should be, procurement would be an easy one)

First up, I am not a graduate of the USMA, but I did serve for 20+ years in the Air Force, and I had dealings with USMA-graduated officers.

“Duty, Honor, Country”. Those are very succinct words with specific meanings.

The term “Army Values” is “fungible”. Synonyms of fungible: exchangeable;substitutable; interchangeable; switchable; replaceable; commutable.

Diversity; Inclusive; Equity; FUNGIBLE WORDS !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

Academy graduates used to be able to clock the 4 years (with an active duty ID) at the Academy as time towards retirement.

When did that change?

It can, however, count toward civil service retirement.

My apologies for the short nested quotes, as I know they are frowned upon.

This statement from pedropcola got my attention too, and to my understanding was incorrect, at least as far as the service academy I attended.

I even called my father to see if he had any recollection of a time when those 4 years at the academy counted toward retirement. That was not his recollection either, and he graduated in 1954. I graduated in 1982, we both went to the CG Academy and had active duty ID cards during those for years, but did not get credit for them toward retirement and neither of us could recall that ever having been a policy of any of the academies.

That said, when I was there the cadets who happened to be enlisted in the CG when they accepted had their prior and academy years included for pay, but again I don't think the actual 4 years at the academy counted toward their retirement. Of that I am not positive though (years counting toward retirement, not the pay part).

My father was enlisted Navy prior to going to the CG Academy so he graduated as an 0-1E with over 3 for pay purposes, but did not get credit for his academy years for his retirement. It would have been moot for him as he did 30 active after the academy anyway which is where the retirement scale maxes out.

The services certainly have different policies, but crediting time served for retirement I would think would be consistent among them.

Not a big deal, sorry for the thread drift.

Well said 2bobtanner. I am a graduate of USNA and we had similar creeds/codes/values. Anytime they are changed the reason is simply politically or socially driven. For a military branch whose sole purpose is bringing war to the enemy that is bullshit. I’m being hyperbolic but I will point out that the Spartans felt no need to continually update their creed to satisfy window lickers.

As to the above, we were always told that was factual but I will admit since it didn’t matter I never investigated the veracity of the claim. I might research. I too had prior enlisted time and yes it counted toward retirement and pay, that I can personally attest to.

If I was boss and retention and recruitment numbers were low I can’t say that I have a solution. I could tell you emphatically that lowering standards would not even be on the list of options though.

Yes, that is how it worked for us then, any enlisted time counted toward pay and retirement, but the 4 years at the academy didn't count for either.

Something that would never fly these days was our class of 79's motto:

Loyalty
Courage
Wisdom
Brawn

quote:

Originally posted by Sigfan Roy:
Yes, that is how it worked for us then, any enlisted time counted toward pay and retirement, but the 4 years at the academy didn't count for either.

Something that would never fly these days was our class of 79's motto:

Loyalty
Courage
Wisdom
Brawn

I remember it as something different.

Gotta love the ambiguity possible with acronyms lol.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^ Right. THE ARMY VALUES say the same thing as the original "Duty, Honor, Country". And more. So, why the unnecessary change and wasting tax payers' money?

Excellent Question, I haven't seen the staff work, but from what I heard they are trying to encourage graduates to stay longer then their initial service obligation. It's estimated that only 25-30% stay in the force and we're short quality officers right now. Plus the discipline issues that have occurred at the academy over the last couple years probably made them what to emphasize things like Respect and Integrity.

From my experience, the best most capable and respected officers are the mustangs, those that started off as enlisted troops. Ring knockers ( academy graduates) are looked at as “ those officers most likely to get you killed for minimal gain”

quote:

Ring knockers (academy graduates) are looked at as “those officers most likely to get you killed for minimal gain”

That brush you paint with is about a mile wide.

Let me tell you my experience with a "mustang". We had a "mustang" in my unit when I was a LT. He did everything he could to make all the rest of us look bad to the CO so he could look better and get a better OER. Too much of an ass to pull himself up, so he worked to pull the rest of us down to get an edge. He was an asshole. I guess they're all like that, but I paint with a broad brush, huh?

I will leave you with this quote, captain127:

"I will take a West Pointer sight unseen any day over any other officer."

-- SSG Frank Allen
Squad Leader/Acting Platoon Sergeant
1st Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 4th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division (Mech) 
Spring 1976
Local Training Area near Aschaffenburg, GE
Vietnam Veteran

(As related to me by a friend of mine).

March 17, 2024
‘Duty, Honor, Country’ versus ‘Army Values’
By Tony Lentini

West Point’s superintendent created a firestorm among the American public with his announcement that the words “DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY” have been deleted from the military academy’s mission statement. The outrage goes far beyond West Point graduates; it includes veterans of all the services as well as civilians.

Those three hallowed words not only are West Point’s motto, but also serve as moral guideposts for leading one’s life. The superintendent’s new mission statement substitutes the vague term “Army Values” for the simple and unequivocal “DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY.”

Let me tell you about amorphous “Army Values.” During my first assignment to a tank company at Ft. Carson, Colorado, I was promoted from platoon leader, a job I truly loved, to executive officer (XO), or second in command of my unit. Among my duties was officer-in-charge of the Arms Room, where all the company’s weapons were secured. As such, my first order of business was to conduct an inventory. What I found was surprising, to say the least: our company was missing a .50 caliber machine gun! Not just any machine gun, but an M2 Browning “Ma Deuce,” the tank commander’s cupola-mounted weapon, capable of penetrating armored personnel carriers, trucks, and other equipment and turning enemy troops into mincemeat.

When I reported the missing machine gun to the company commander (CO), he was not at all surprised...or pleased. “It’s been missing for years, probably lost in maintenance,” he said. “Just sign the inventory as ‘all present and accounted for,’ or you’ll create a monumental problem for us. Everybody signs.”

“But, Sir, that would be a felony, ‘falsifying an official document.’ I just can’t do that,” I replied. “Besides, it’s not like we’re missing an empty magazine; it’s a .50 caliber machine gun!”

“Just sign the inventory. That’s an order,” the CO insisted.

“That’s an illegal order, and I won’t do it,” I said. “You can sign it yourself.”

That was the end of my military career.

“Army Values” call for following orders. I knew I could not continue to work for that company commander, so I found a job at 4th Infantry Division Headquarters. Months later, I learned that I had been utterly and unfairly trashed on my Officer’s Efficiency Report. These OERs are generally inflated, so receiving even one bad report effectively terminates your career. You’ll never make general — probably not even full colonel. I wasn’t even sure I would make captain.

But I stood firm, without hesitation, because of...HONOR. Strangely enough, this exact situation was a scenario presented in my DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY class at West Point in the summer of 1967 during Beast Barracks, or new cadet basic training. A key facet of HONOR is always to take the harder, right path rather than the easier wrong one.

I grew up an Army brat. My father, a World War II 9th Army Air Corps veteran, was commissioned through ROTC in 1949, just a couple of months after I was born. He soon left Mom and me to serve as an infantry platoon leader in the Korean War. Thereafter, we traveled the world — from Germany to Hawaii — as an Army family, living on military bases where, at reveille and retreat, everyone stopped to salute the flag. By the time I graduated high school, I’d attended 13 different schools, but I loved the life and looked up to the adults in uniform all around me as the heroes they were. All I ever wanted to do was serve as an Army officer. But now that dream was over.

I couldn’t just let it go. My personal sense of DUTY required me to pursue the matter further, so I went to my CO’s boss, the battalion commander. He apparently knew about the missing machine gun and blew me off. So I went further up the chain of command to his boss, the brigade commander. He listened and took me seriously. I never found out what transpired as a result, but I also never looked back on my decision to ensure that the truth would win out in the end.

I left the Army as soon as my five-year West Point commitment was up. Several times in my civilian career, I was asked to do something that I knew was wrong. Each time, I refused, the last with millions of dollars of stock options on the line. But I had to live with myself. Thankfully, I kept my job each time.

DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY are absolutes. “Values,” be they Army or civilian, are transitory. There is a reason why those three words were omitted from West Point’s mission statement, and it is not good.

In recent years, the United States Military Academy, the other service academies, and our armed forces in general — like much of Western Society — have all gone “woke.” Divisive Marxist concepts, such as Critical Race Theory; transgender indoctrination; advancement based on race and sex over merit; and Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity, have undermined unit cohesion and morale, destroyed attainment of military recruiting goals, and severely hampered our ability to fight and win wars.

While it is true that West Point’s motto was incorporated into the mission statement only in 1998, the recent decision to drop those words, substituting imprecise and open-to-interpretation “Army Values,” only weakens and occludes what ought to be clear and unequivocal — especially in today’s dangerous and divisive world, when we are flirting with global thermonuclear war. It is imperative that we get back on track now. A first step is to enshrine DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY in the West Point mission statement. Change it back, then get back to basics.

Tony Lentini is a 1971 West Point graduate who attained the rank of captain in the U.S. Army before departing the service in 1976. Thereafter, he pursued a career in the energy industry, eventually becoming vice president of public and international affairs for two independent oil and gas companies. He is a founder and board member of the MacArthur Society of West Point Graduates, which seeks to restore honor, fairness, merit-based advancement, and battlefield-relevant curricula to the United States Military Academy.

https://www.americanthinker.co...sus_army_values.html

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY are absolutes.

The left doesn't like absolutes. Murky is much preferable because then they can define anything anyway they choose.
As he suggests, this is precisely why those three words are gone.