Verdict tomorrow.

Fingers crossed.

I was the fuck up too. Had most of the stuff you described in your post Chongo. Life is good now. Not opulent but certainly good.

I hope for the best fair shake your friend can get.

Congrats on your wedding too! for me, 3rd time was the charm.

The more digging, the more information. It appears to be a HS-SS. He said, she said.

She left a message on his cell weeks after the incident professing her love and he sent a text about the incident.

This will be an interesting verdict. I wish you well in dealing with this.

If his punishment is relatively light, he learned some important lessons. Also there is more to life than having one career, he could bounce back fairly well. I am on my third career, it is not that big a deal to switch.

Best wishes to you and friend.

Regarding the question of adultery, the article I read lists the offenses he’s charged with, and adultery under Article 134 isn’t one of them. As far as I can determine, adultery isn’t a lesser included offense to the charge of rape either. If I’m correct about all that, that’s not something the defendant has to worry about, at least in this trial.

The article also mentioned that there was no jury and the case was being tried by a military judge only. Again assuming I’m correct in believing that that would be the case only if requested by the defendant, it’s another interesting aspect. I wonder if it was believed that a judge would be more objective about some of the issues that weren’t charged such as the adultery and a fraternization relationship between members of the same unit.

Somebody mention the cost of his wedding. He married into money. He had no desire to be that extravagant.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
. . . adultery isn’t a lesser included offense to the charge of rape either . . .

Adultery is charged under Article 134, and is not a lesser included offense under Article 120-Rape and Sexual Assault.

quote:

The article also mentioned that there was no jury and the case was being tried by a military judge only. Again assuming I’m correct in believing that that would be the case only if requested by the defendant . . .

Under Rule 501 and 903, except for capital cases, at a general court-martial the defendant has a right to have a panel of at least 5 persons (equivalent of a jury), and an enlisted member can request that enlisted personnel be part of, but not the entire panel. The defendant can request to have a trial by military judge alone. In capital cases the panel will have at least 12 members unless some exigency makes that unreasonable.

Best to you, chongosuerte. Several times I’ve had the experience of discovering that someone I respected had feel of clay. Sometime I continued to respect them, but most of the time not. I never liked it very much, but I also never let it affect my life either.

And thanks, DMF, for that information. I have thought about going back and comparing the UCMJ and MCM of my day to the current versions, but that would only remind me of how old I am.

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
. . . adultery isn’t a lesser included offense to the charge of rape either . . .

Adultery is charged under Article 134, and is not a lesser included offense under Article 120-Rape and Sexual Assault.

quote:

The article also mentioned that there was no jury and the case was being tried by a military judge only. Again assuming I’m correct in believing that that would be the case only if requested by the defendant . . .

Under Rule 501 and 903, except for capital cases, at a general court-martial the defendant has a right to have a panel of at least 5 persons (equivalent of a jury), and an enlisted member can request that enlisted personnel be part of, but not the entire panel. The defendant can request to have a trial by military judge alone. In capital cases the panel will have at least 12 members unless some exigency makes that unreasonable.

Based on what you know, what's your offhand opinion? I don't see any way he can remain in the Navy. At best some type of probation? Most likely some active time?

Will they sentence immediately? Or will there be delay between verdict and sentence?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Best to you, chongosuerte. Several times I’ve had the experience of discovering that someone I respected had feel of clay. Sometime I continued to respect them, but most of the time not. I never liked it very much, but I also never let it affect my life either.

And thanks, DMF, for that information. I have thought about going back and comparing the UCMJ and MCM of my day to the current versions, but that would only remind me of how old I am.

Thank you, and everyone else, for the kind words. This really has upset me. Not just because of what it is, but because of how much I care for this guy and how far he has to fall. I know how hard he worked to get where he is, and now it is all dashed.

My guess is that he will be convicted of a lesser included offense to rape because of the reasonable doubt standard and there’s no evidence to support the charge other than the reporting party’s stale claim. Police and adjudicators of all varieties tend to be very skeptical of rape complaints made long after the alleged fact.

But because the other offenses are all so serious that would still be the end of his career. It may not result in confinement or even a Dishonorable Discharge, but it will be some sort of discharge. In my (old) experience, sentence was announced within a short time after the verdict, but not immediately.

If, however, he’s found not guilty, then he won’t face discharge or other punishment, but the incident still won’t look good on his record and he could still face something like a reprimand for what he confessed to. That alone could, and probably would be a career-ending situation, but probably not immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Best to you, chongosuerte. Several times I’ve had the experience of discovering that someone I respected had feel of clay. Sometime I continued to respect them, but most of the time not. I never liked it very much, but I also never let it affect my life either.

And thanks, DMF, for that information. I have thought about going back and comparing the UCMJ and MCM of my day to the current versions, but that would only remind me of how old I am.

Thank you, and everyone else, for the kind words. This really has upset me. Not just because of what it is, but because of how much I care for this guy and how far he has to fall. I know how hard he worked to get where he is, and now it is all dashed.

I didn't bother to google him, but don't let your friends bad decisions to upset you. He made choices, he has to live with them. Don't mean to be a dick, but I have zero respect for someone who cheats. Unsure of the rest of his indiscretions, but if he abused his position or did anything to sully the Navy, then I really don't feel bad for him.

Hopefully he it is adjudicated in a way that is fair to all parties.

Sometimes friends make bad decisions that alter their, and others, lives.

Only you can decide how much that will alter your life.

Only you can decide if those decisions will claim your friendship.

Sometimes you have to walk into the fire. Other times, away from it.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
. . . adultery isn’t a lesser included offense to the charge of rape either . . .

Adultery is charged under Article 134, and is not a lesser included offense under Article 120-Rape and Sexual Assault.

quote:

The article also mentioned that there was no jury and the case was being tried by a military judge only. Again assuming I’m correct in believing that that would be the case only if requested by the defendant . . .

Under Rule 501 and 903, except for capital cases, at a general court-martial the defendant has a right to have a panel of at least 5 persons (equivalent of a jury), and an enlisted member can request that enlisted personnel be part of, but not the entire panel. The defendant can request to have a trial by military judge alone. In capital cases the panel will have at least 12 members unless some exigency makes that unreasonable.

Based on what you know, what's your offhand opinion? I don't see any way he can remain in the Navy. At best some type of probation? Most likely some active time?

Will they sentence immediately? Or will there be delay between verdict and sentence?

Well I hate to speculate, especially based on the very, very, little information I know.

All the charges described in the stories I've read are the equivalent of a felony, even the Article 92 failure to obey a general regulation. Dishonorable Discharge or a Bad Conduct Discharge are possible for all of them also. Again, IF some of the lesser included offenses are a possibility, then for some a discharge isn't even a possible punishment. Such as a simple assault.

So without more info it's impossible to even make a wild ass guess. There's always the possibility the government didn't meet it's burden on any counts, and he gets acquitted across the board. However, if I were placing bets, that's not a play I'd back.

Sorry, none of that helps, but it's just impossible to guess with so little information. However, to be blunt odds are not good.

As for sentencing, all the cases I worked on in the military were pleaded out prior to the general court martial, or dismissed altogether, after the Article 32 hearing. Funny thing is I was always told trials were slightly more common in the military than US District Courts, but that just wasn't my experience. I just don't have any practical knowledge of sentencing after trial.

Perhaps sigfreund can shed more light on how quickly the presentence matters can be presented by both sides, and result in sentencing.

ETA: I just saw he already answered! Thanks sigfreund.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I have thought about going back and comparing the UCMJ and MCM of my day to the current versions, but that would only remind me of how old I am.

Hell, the only reason I am still somewhat current on this stuff is we occasionally have some suspects that are military, and I'm the guy in the office asked about this stuff based on my prior experience. I give a quick answer (often after make a quick perusal of the MCM), and then quickly get a prosecutor I know, who is still a JAG in the reserves, to consult!

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If, however, he’s found not guilty, then he won’t face discharge or other punishment, but the incident still won’t look good on his record and he could still face something like a reprimand for what he confessed to. That alone could, and probably would be a career-ending situation, but probably not immediately.

How close is this guy to retirement? If he's found not guilty of the felony charges he still confessed to the affair. That usually results in either a forced retirement if you are over 20 years, or a bar to reenlistment.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:
No jeopardy has attached. Theoretically they could attempt to charge other substantive acts as adultery, but unless his "confession" specified other dates of consensual sex, that would be very difficult. Also, if the Commander wanted to ensure a conviction, and they had that evidence, they could have included those same substantive acts for this prosecution.

It's unlikely the Commander would/could charge 134 Adultery if the accused is acquitted of all charges at this trial.

I found this a little odd as well. Adultery is usually the first think they charge you with because it's the easiest to prove.

I'm not going to go into the nuts and bolts of the A134 subsections, but outside of murder rape is one of the most serious crimes under UCMJ. Rape in a war zone carries the potential for the death penalty.

I worked for a former Army JAG prosecutor.

Whenever there was a case involving adultery, he always charged the person with a 134 violation and rape.

If the defendant said the sex was consensual, BOOM!, it was admission to the 134 charge. If the defendant said it wasn't adultery, BOOM! admission to rape.

In either case the defendant was toast and backed into accepting a plea deal.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
How close is this guy to retirement? If he's found not guilty of the felony charges he still confessed to the affair. That usually results in either a forced retirement if you are over 20 years, or a bar to reenlistment.

Not close enough. I found this in one of the news articles..."joined the Navy in 2006 and was promoted to chief petty officer on Aug. 16, 2015, according to a Navy biography."

Even if acquitted on all charges, the Navy has ways of sending you away. I can't imagine him being able to reenlist in this current climate.

quote:

The article also mentioned that there was no jury and the case was being tried by a military judge only.

Just like in civilian trials: if the law is on your side have a court trial, if emotion is on your side have a jury trial.

In my experience with the military justice system the military members of the court are often pretty harsh when it comes to violations of integrity or honor.