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Originally posted by tacfoley:

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Originally posted by radioman:
Not a fan of the Swiss. They didn't exactly help us during WWII. In fact, one could make an argument that they screwed us over.

Switzerland stopped American and British aircraft from overflying Switzerland during World War II. This apparently cost some lives of the good guys.

just sayin'

Didn't stop your guys bombing the Swiss city of Schaffhausen on 1 April 1944. It changed the life of an entire region within a few minutes. Large parts of the city were destroyed by some 400 incendiary and demolition bombs. The station area was destroyed as well as many of the industrial buildings. Not only were 270 people injured and 40 killed, but hundreds of jobs were also destroyed.

just sayin'.

tac

To be fair, you should state that bombing was accidental due to some navigation errors. While sadly unfortunate, the bombing was not part of any policy.

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Originally posted by radioman:To be fair, you should state that bombing was accidental due to some navigation errors. While sadly unfortunate, the bombing was not part of any policy.

All true, but it didn't make you any friends in Schaffhausen.

tac

I don't think Switzerland is a country we necessarily want to emulate in all things. The one thing you can say is that they prove the mere possession of guns doesn't automatically turn one into a killer.

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Originally posted by BansheeOne:

Though the famous "ready ammunition" in a sealed box to take home along the rifle and be loaded for self-defense during mobilization has once again been withdrawn in 2007, as it was in 1899 and 1945.

Are you saying they can keep the rifles but no ammunition? What about a few loaded magazines, enough to carry on one's person?

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Everyone is required to buy health insurance...

This is where they lost me...

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Originally posted by parallel:

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Everyone is required to buy health insurance...

This is where they lost me...

But it’s private health insurance, not the mis-managed bullshit program we know as Obamacare, so it’s not as bad as you think.

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Originally posted by egregore:
I don't think Switzerland is a country we necessarily want to emulate in all things. The one thing you can say is that they prove the mere possession of guns doesn't automatically turn one into a killer.

Why do we need the Swiss to prove that? We have proof right here at home.

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Originally posted by brywards:

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Originally posted by parallel:

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Everyone is required to buy health insurance...

This is where they lost me...

But it’s private health insurance, not the mis-managed bullshit program we know as Obamacare, so it’s not as bad as you think.

No sir, it is about freedom. Freedom to choose whether I want buy something or not. Forcing folks to buy something they don't want is the definition of tyranny in my book.

good read but its comparing apples and peanuts

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
The Swiss also have the luxury of letting other countries--namely the United States--do the world's policing for them.

Seriously, comparing a mostly homogeneous country with a population of less than 9 million with that of a country with the size and diversity of the US is quite futile.

That is what I was thinking. Also, do not forget the Swiss processed financial transactions for the Nazis and sold a lot of arms to the German military, to boot. They sat in the middle and played both sides.

That said, it IS a beautiful place to visit, and I love my P210. Swiss engineering is top notch.

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Originally posted by flashguy:
The defense of Switzerland is not hurt by the fact that there is almost no level ground in the country--its all mountains.

flashguy

Actually that's just the south. The north and west are rather open terrain. The Swiss wartime strategy has long been retreating to the "national redoubt" of the Alps and defend the country from there. Of course that would mean giving up the major population and industrial centers, so how successful it would be in the long run is anybody's guess; it's one of those near-mythical military plans that has never been tested in reality. In WW II, the Swiss did a reasonably good job of defending their sovereignty given that they ended up being an island in an Axis sea. People like to assert that Germany didn't invade because of Switzerland's military reputation, but while I'm sure that played a role, the Swiss also had to compromise a lot.

From mid-May to mid-June 1940, they shot down eleven German aircraft straying into their airspace during operations over France, and lost two of their own with three crew killed. Germany of course threw a fit (probably not least because the Swiss were using Messerschmitt fighters purchased only a little earlier for the buildup of their air force after war broke out in Europe), claimed that it was actually the Swiss operating beyond their borders, demanded an apology, and just to make its point reduced vital coal shipments to Switzerland while also sending some saboteurs to set off bombs at Swiss airbases. While those were all arrested, the Swiss realized their weak position, stopped intercepts (though AA fire continued, since nobody could very well claim the guns were straying over the border), apologized and released all interned German aircrew. They also had to promise that delivery of war materiél to Germany and use of Swiss railroads for transfer of raw materials from Italy would continue, and to black out Swiss cities to hinder navigation of allied aircraft en route to Germany.

The latter was a major reason that allied aircraft bombed them by mistake (or, as the Swiss suspected, to send a warning over their forced cooperation with Germany) about 70 times as the tide of war turned, killing a total of 84. That happened twice, to Basel and Zürich, in December 1940 already, but the Swiss only resumed air defense after Oerlikon in Zürich got bombed in May 1943. Ten allied aircraft were shot down with 36 crew killed; the Swiss also lost at least one fighter to American pilots who didn't know they were over Switzerland. In total, Swiss airspace was violated some 6,500 times during WW II, with 198 aircraft forced down or making emergency landings, 56 crashes and 1,700 allied aircrew interned.

In the end, Switzerland served as a safe haven for aircrews of both warring parties in emergencies (and even some ground troops; notably, when Belarussian, Ukrainian and Russian legionaries from two battalions of 30th SS Waffen-Grenadierdivision mutinied in France in 1944 and killed their German officers, some crossed into Switzerland while others joined the French resistance they had been sent to fight). Both sides also used the country as a base for intelligence operations and to talk to each other on neutral ground, similar to Portugal which was in much the same situation under strong allied influence. For example, in 1943 SS chief Heinrich Himmler sent emissaries to discuss a separate peace in the West with Allan Dulles, then head of the OSS in Bern. Dulles also received reports from the plotters of the 20 July 1944 assassination attempt on Hitler and from agents in Germany, including on the Me 262 jetfighter and the V-weapons. For the Swiss, it meant that even though the morals of some of their decisions were questionable, they got through WW II mostly intact.

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Originally posted by BansheeOne:

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Originally posted by Sig209:
Articles like this - while fun to read- always make me cringe as completely unrealistic.

No shit. The author seems to be ignorant of about any point he makes.

- Yes, the Swiss healthcare system requires mandatory enlistment in any of a number of insurances available in the respective canton (think state) for basic coverage, which can be expanded to cover additional medical treatment. Low-income earners get subsidized by their canton. Sounds familiar? It should, in the US they call it Obamacare.

Correct. I´s also important to say that it was not a goverment decret, it was the poples decision based on a democratic vote to not leave less fortunate behind. It´s assumed to be one of the factors for the relatively low rate of criminality.

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- The SIG 550 service rifle is of course not semi-, but full-auto. I don't know whether the militiamen keep them oiled to defend the republic, but they better do it since they have to pass annual qualifications while not called up. Though the famous "ready ammunition" in a sealed box to take home along the rifle and be loaded for self-defense during mobilization has once again been withdrawn in 2007, as it was in 1899 and 1945.

Correct.

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- Switzerland couldn't introduce the Euro since it's not a EU member, though most businesses will accept it and from 2011 to 2015 the Swiss Central Bank set a minimum exchange rate of 1.20 Francs for the Euro, essentially tying both currencies together. This was an attempt to counter the rise of the Franc's value which has been hurting Swiss exports by making products more expensive on the world market - ironically as a result of what the author describes, that everybody is investing in Francs as a safe denomination.

Correct. The current situation is hurting Swiss export economy and retailers located close the EU border.

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- Yeah, the Swiss allow "some" immigration. In fact their population is 25 percent non-citizens, the highest share anywhere in Europe except the mini-states of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

yep, from all over the world. Any color, any religion.

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Counting Swiss citizens whose parents were born abroad, more than 37 percent of residents have an immigration background. For comparison purposes, in Germany (which ranks eighth in the EU regarding this, as the first major country behind Austria, Ireland and Belgium) it's about ten percent non-citizens, and 23 percent with at least one parent not born with German citizenship and/or in Germany.

It tunred out to have a positive effect on national health.

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But I didn't know about the local Escalade holiday #in Geneva, so at least I learned that from the article. Even though I find the author got the French phrase said at the table wrong.

It´s a feel good story. Geneva did not enter the Swiss Federation before 1835.

There is some truth in this article, but a lot of it is wrong.

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Originally posted by radioman:
Not a fan of the Swiss. They didn't exactly help us during WWII. In fact, one could make an argument that they screwed us over.

Switzerland stopped American and British aircraft from overflying Switzerland during World War II. This apparently cost some lives of the good guys.

There is evidence they were taking in money, gold, paintings and other items that were stolen by Nazis, which were deposited in Swiss banks by the Nazis.

just sayin'

and why should the Swiss have helped you? Early in the war we were surrounded by enemies, the allies were far away and not at all interested in supporting us (why would they?)

Neutrality means treating everyone equally.

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Originally posted by sjtill:
Trick question: who is the president of Switzerland?

yeah, well. That position is kind of only for decoration anyway. It's not that the "president" has more rights than the other six members of the federal counsil.

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Originally posted by Kampfhamster:

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Originally posted by sjtill:
Trick question: who is the president of Switzerland?

yeah, well. That position is kind of only for decoration anyway. It's not that the "president" has more rights than the other six members of the federal counsil.

Kampfhamster, the highes sovereign in Switzerland is the Nationalratspräsident. For 2017/2018 it´s Dominique de Buman CVP. Bundesrat is executive. They manage the ministries and transfrom the peoples will (National-/Ständerat) into action.

Take their semi-auto weapons home? The one I was permitted to handle in Luzerne was select fire.

@OTD: didn't know that. Thanks!

But that shows how important this position is

@BillyBonesNY: once a soldier has finished his mandatory service the rifle is converted to semiauto only if he wants to keep it.

Interesting article and responses. Is the take away there is no principle or distilled wisdom we can take from Switzerland and apply to other circumstances?

They sure keep the country tidy, and the trains run on time. And if something is "made in Switzerland" it is usually damn good, whether it is a gun or a chocolate bar!

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Interesting article and responses. Is the take away there is no principle or distilled wisdom we can take from Switzerland and apply to other circumstances?

How about their government-by-committee in which all the parties in parliament participate? Might serve to overcome the whole bipartisan polarization thing. Of course I've seen it argued that the Swiss actually don't have a government in the conventional sense at all, which would be an even better argument.

Or you could try the popular vote by hand in public places on any legal measure up to canton level, for which people used to bring a sword as the sign of the citizen liable for military service and enfranchised to vote (bringing a gun would probably be more American). The latter has fallen increasingly out of use though since women were also given the vote (only in 1971 at the confederate level, and the last canton of Appenzell-Innerrhoden was eventually forced by their supreme court to adopt it in 1990); and most cantons have generally abolished the public vote in favor of the conventional ballot box by now, since the old way was becoming impractical with rising population numbers.