quote:

Originally posted by oldRoger:....Public Employee pensions are essentially the only ones still using this Ponzi scheme (defined benefit), almost all other employees now use defined contribution systems.

Many of us here on the Forum had promises made by our private employers, in many cases these promises were not kept. Why? There was not enough money.
Bankruptcy and insolvency are the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.

Another bullseye.

It was a defined benefit retirement plan that bankrupted GM. Their CEO at the time said they were no longer a car company, they were a retirement company that made cars on the side.

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Bankruptcy and insolvency are the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.

Well.... they were the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.... until the aforementioned GM bankruptcy.
In the GM bankruptcy, the bankruptcy rules were turned on their head. The pension plan was placed ahead of secured creditors and billions in taxpayer funds were used to bail it out.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Bankruptcy and insolvency are the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.

Well.... they were the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.... until the aforementioned GM bankruptcy.
In the GM bankruptcy, the bankruptcy rules were turned on their head. The pension plan was placed ahead of secured creditors and billions in taxpayer funds were used to bail it out.

For which we can thank Obama.

The first step in fixing anything with regards to the government… Is to prohibit collective-bargaining by government workers.

Why should we the citizens for which the government works for, allow collective-bargaining/labor unions to negotiate against us - their bosses? Cray cray ...

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by sns3guppy:....I don't believe I've ever heard teachers seek a fifteen dollar an hour wage.

It's not leftist to seek a livable wage, and yes, there is such a thing. Teachers aren't asking for a hand-out or a dole; they're asking for better pay for a job that is not only done 40 hours a week, but often 60 hours a week for 40 hours substandard pay.

Teaching isn't a leftist activity. It's a job, and is not on par with working at McDonalds, and shouldn't be paid that way.

I am guessing you don't live in California. (I teach in college here).

We just had a school board member tell us that $70K a year (excluding benefits) is not enough for a public school teacher (K-12). And the first hiring criteria here is diversity, not skill. And non leftist full time teachers don't last very long in most public education around here.

Someone else made the point, and it's a 'mic drop' moment - did teachers not know what the job paid when they took said job? BOOM. In the private sector where many of us peons work - if you don't like the pay scale you find another job paying more, if you can - with your education, skills, etc. Teachers have - just like those that majored in 'African Studies' or 'History' or 'Literature', et al. - have pigeonholed themselves into a career that makes 'X' dollars/yr. That's a *choice*. I don't want to hear them griping that they don't make enough, perhaps you should have gone to school in the Sciences, Engineering, etc. if you wanted to make much more - teaching pays what it pays.

That being said, and I'm originally from NJ - the deal in NJ was that the teachers didn't make their 'big bux' in salary year over year, their payoff was the pensions and benefits in retirement which are GOLD. Those dollars are always paid at current year values, which is much more expensive than had they been paid the larger salaries over the years in return for a modest pension/benefits payout in retirement.

FYI my FIL is a retired NJ teacher, 34 some-odd years - and I don't begrudge him his pension/bennies in retirement - that was the deal back when it was negotiated by the Union with the State. I was making more per year than him by the time I hit year 10 or so in my chosen field. He is currently wildly enjoying the fruits of his labor in retirement, and God bless him and all the others who are enjoying the fruits of their labors.

The NJ Teacher's union flat refuses to discuss any change in this dynamic - on behalf of the taxpayers of NJ, who can no longer afford such amenities for their teachers - a line should be drawn and the teachers paid more like if it was private industry, i.e. higher yearly salaries and a 401(k), and a modes pension and bennies in retirement. This way all those who were promised the 'old' system get what they signed on for, and going forward those who sign on as teachers into the future know what they're getting - just like those of us in private industry.

Lastly, teachers are not Gods, although they'd like for us to believe them to be and pay them better than six figures/yr for their efforts. It's a JOB, some indicate it's a *calling* - you're never going to get rich being a teacher, just like you're never going to get rich with a degree and a career in African studies. Better be something you *love* to do, because you made a college (degree) and career choice to do something you *loved*, versus something that will pay you bigger bucks like those in math, engineering, sciences.

"Do you hate Teachers?", indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

And, no, I don't hate teachers, I hate leftists. I am also sick and tired of said leftists co-opting language with nebulous terms such as a "living wage", or "comprehensive immigration reform", or "common sense gun control". These terms, deliberately, have no objective meaning. They mean whatever the leftists want them to mean on any given day for any given purpose.

So, for months or even years now, we've heard that $15/hr is a "living wage". OK. If it's a "living wage for someone flipping burgers, then it is also "living wage" for a teacher...or anyone else for that matter. They asked for it? They got it.

I don't believe I've ever heard teachers seek a fifteen dollar an hour wage.

It's not leftist to seek a livable wage, and yes, there is such a thing. Teachers aren't asking for a hand-out or a dole; they're asking for better pay for a job that is not only done 40 hours a week, but often 60 hours a week for 40 hours substandard pay.

Teaching isn't a leftist activity. It's a job, and is not on par with working at McDonalds, and shouldn't be paid that way.

I have a different view. Teachers here START out at $42k a year right out of college, work 186 days out of the year, and into the $50's after getting certified after 2 years teaching, in a county where the average annual wage is $48k a year. They get every holiday on the calendar off, the entire summer off, and a pension. I think they are fairly compensated, but agree that if they didn't like what a teachers job paid, they should've never chosen to become one.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jimmy123x,

A long read but rather timely article about public pensions in Illinois:

http://www.wirepoints.com/harv...ints-special-report/

^^ Wow!
Are taxpayers going to tolerate paying taxes for prior pensions, and not receiving current services?
I don't think so. People will move out:

Harvey made the news last year when an Illinois court ordered the municipality to hike its property taxes to properly fund the Harvey firefighter pension fund, which is just 22 percent funded.

Now, the state has stepped in on behalf of Harvey’s police pension fund. The state comptroller has begun garnishing the city’s tax revenues to make up what the municipality failed to contribute. In response, the city has announced that 40 public safety employees will be laid off.

Under state law, pensions that don’t receive required funding may demand the Illinois Comptroller intercept their municipality’s tax revenues. More than 400 police and fire pension funds, or 63 percent of Illinois’ 651 total downstate public safety funds, received less funding than what was required from their cities in 2016 – the most recent year for which statewide data is available.

Two-thirds of Illinois’ 355 police pension funds failed to receive their full required contribution in 2016. And 60 percent of Illinois’ 296 firefighter pension funds suffered the same fate.

If those same numbers continue to hold true, all those cities face the risk of having their revenues intercepted by the comptroller.

Thank god my state's pensions are well funded.

On the police side...it takes THIRTY years to reach full retirement. I don't know what the percentage is of those that start vs those that make it 30 years. Just from my personal observation it seems to be something around 25% or less. Thirty years is a long damn time.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Bankruptcy and insolvency are the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.

Well.... they were the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.... until the aforementioned GM bankruptcy.
In the GM bankruptcy, the bankruptcy rules were turned on their head. The pension plan was placed ahead of secured creditors and billions in taxpayer funds were used to bail it out.

Which was.....Illegal. Yet another example of the law not being equally applied. A number of players in that abortion should have ended up in federal jail.

April 20, 2018
Harvey, IL pension crisis 'canary in the coal mine'

Harvey. Illinois is in the midst of a financial crisis that represents the tip of the iceberg for literally hundreds of small towns in Illinois.

The city of 25,000 in the far northwest suburbs of Chicago is suffering from high unemployment (22%). An astonishing 32% of the population lives below the poverty level. This is a deadly mixture that has caused catastrophic shortfalls in revenue, leading to a crisis in funding pensions for the city's retired workers.

Since state law prohibits municipal bankruptcy, Harvey has been forced into a situation Illinois has never seen. In February, the state began to garnish Harvey's revenue to fund its pension liabilities. The city was forced to lay off 40 police and firemen - 25% of police employees and 40% of firefighters. This, in a city already known for high levels of crime.

The irony, of course, is that the state of Illinois' own pension crisis is even worse. But fear is growing that unless a massive infusion of pension money is forthcoming from the state, dozens if towns will suffer a similar fate as Harvey.

From the Illinois Opportunity Project:

The City of Harvey cannot afford to pay its bills and their employees so they were forced to cut 40 public employees from the police and fire departments. The city has an unemployment rate over 20%, effective property tax rates are over 5%, despite home values declining at an alarming 80% over the last 10 years.

Harvey families, homeowners, workers, and business owners have paid out nearly $25 million in pension benefits to 42 retired firefighters who have only contributed a collective $1.14 million to their retirement fund.

The math to solvency doesn’t work.

Declining revenue plus ballooning pension costs equals pain for Harvey's citizens.

Who is standing up for the families in Harvey? Is it Democratic Mayor Kellogg who has been under investigation multiple times for insider deals and fraud? Democratic Cook County Commissioner Toni Preckwinkle who supported Democratic Cook County Property Assessor Joe Berrios who was exposed for his corruption in assessing property values to benefit the rich and punish the poor? The Democratic majority in Springfield that has been propping up Ponzi schemes for years unchallenged and being held to no standards?

The situation in Harvey is not unique and is an ominous case study for the path that the state and other communities are moving towards. Overall, nearly two-thirds of Illinois’ 651 pension funds got less than their required contribution from their cities in 2016.

At present, it is impossible to change the way that public pensions are calculated in Illinois. The state constitution forbids it. These defined benefit plans are rigged in favor of union employees and are unreasonable and, as we are seeing, a threat to the livelihood and lives of millions of residents.

Governor Bruce Rauner tried to change the situation but was stymied by the state's liberal courts. But it's not a question of whether there will be changes to the public pension system in Illinois. The only question is when it will happen.

The Illinois Opportunity Project has long been an advocate for reforming the pension system and shifting state-funded pensions to a 401k style system. Politicians have proven time and time again that they are unable to manage the funds and have succumbed to pressures from public sector unions to overpromise benefits, thus enabling an unsustainable system at the state and local levels at the expense of hard working taxpayers.

[...]

State lawmakers have no other choice but to enact legislation to allow local units of government to file for bankruptcy. The state must loosen its reigns over local governments and allow them to reform their finances, otherwise everyone suffers and Illinois will continue to lead the nation in outbound residents seeking to escape a confiscatory government.

What Democrats in the state have yet to realize is that eventually, they will run out of other people's money to spend. There is already talk about a federal bailout of the state's pension plans that would almost certainly cost hundreds of billions of dollars. Will the American people be willing to pony up and save the state of Illinois from its own greedy, incompetent politicians?

https://www.americanthinker.co...n_the_coal_mine.html

Another thing teachers don't mention is they work 175-180 days a year for their salary. People that work in normal businesses work 246 days a year on average for their salary.

quote:

In the GM bankruptcy, the bankruptcy rules were turned on their head. The pension plan was placed ahead of secured creditors and billions in taxpayer funds were used to bail it out.

This is true but only in part, the UAW was essentially made whole despite the bankruptcy by act of the Emperor Obama the Worthless. In effect the Government "gave" the bones of the corporation to the UAW. No doubt in compensation for all of the fine work the UAW did on behalf of the Democrat party. However, the salaried employees were not part of this deal. Guarantees made about both retirement pay and medical benefits to salaried employees were not kept. Many engineers and the like ended up totally screwed.

Of course the only exception to the "no money/no retirement pay" axiom is when government prints more. Then all of us take the hit in inflation. Even the printing of money cannot solve the problem if the problem is deep enough.

In the end the only safe pension is the one that you personally control.

quote:

This is true but only in part, the UAW was essentially made whole despite the bankruptcy by act of the Emperor Obama the Worthless. In effect the Government "gave" the bones of the corporation to the UAW. No doubt in compensation for all of the fine work the UAW did on behalf of the Democrat party. However, the salaried employees were not part of this deal. Guarantees made about both retirement pay and medical benefits to salaried employees were not kept. Many engineers and the like ended up totally screwed.

Right!
The UAW did loads on behalf of the Democrat party. Huge chunks of those union dues wind up with the Democrat party. You could even say that the Democrat party took so much out of GM that it caused the bankruptcy.
So who gets screwed? The non-union salaried employees who didn't give huge chunks of their pay to the Democrats.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
So, for months or even years now, we've heard that $15/hr is a "living wage". OK. If it's a "living wage for someone flipping burgers, then it is also "living wage" for a teacher...or anyone else for that matter. They asked for it? They got it.

You may not "hate" teachers per se, but the "$15/hr" comment did not lack in spite. Following your (hopefully exaggerated) point to it's logical conclusion, you'd obviously be OK with a $15/hr heart surgeon.

Calling all teachers "left-wing" is about as valid as calling all gunowners "inbred cousin-humpers." I get the frustration with teachers' unions. Some teachers have said some REALLY stupid stuff. If you've been following the politics, you know that Oklahoma teachers recently got a pay raise before the walkout. (There is an petition circulating to get that rescinded.) What you probably did NOT hear about were the schools that stayed in session. You probably also did not hear about schools like mine where a minority voted to walkout, thus holding the rest of us hostage to their demands. (We would've held school if we could've found enough qualified substitutes.)

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How many of them didn't know what the job paid when they chose it as a profession?

They do know. That's the problem in Oklahoma. The market works both ways. People know what it pays and are deciding to not be teachers. The entire state is graduating only 304 education majors this spring. Mid-career teachers in my building are trying to decide whether to stay until retirement. There's a lot of gray hair, and many of them are talking about walking away. My concern is "who is going to replace them?" Almost 10% of my high school's teachers are Emergency Certified (which means they currently have no qualification to be teaching what they're teaching). I don't see that getting better in the future.

You want to privatize all schools? Go ahead. I can compete.
You want to audit the state Dept of Ed and all the school districts to get rid of waste? Please do so.
You want to try introducing a plan that would pay teachers more now and get rid of the pension? Be my guest.

I am open to solutions. Unfortunately, most folks seem more content flinging poo at "the other side" rather than realizing we are all in this together whether we like it or not.

quote:

. . . the UAW was essentially made whole despite the bankruptcy by act of the Emperor Obama the Worthless. In effect the Government "gave" the bones of the corporation to the UAW. No doubt in compensation for all of the fine work the UAW did on behalf of the Democrat party. However, the salaried employees were not part of this deal. Guarantees made about both retirement pay and medical benefits to salaried employees were not kept. Many engineers and the like ended up totally screwed.

Of course the only exception to the "no money/no retirement pay" axiom is when government prints more. Then all of us take the hit in inflation. Even the printing of money cannot solve the problem if the problem is deep enough.

In the end the only safe pension is the one that you personally control.

quote:

The UAW did loads on behalf of the Democrat party. Huge chunks of those union dues wind up with the Democrat party. You could even say that the Democrat party took so much out of GM that it caused the bankruptcy.
So who gets screwed? The non-union salaried employees who didn't give huge chunks of their pay to the Democrats.

Bingo and bullseye.

quote:

You want to privatize all schools? Go ahead. I can compete.
You want to audit the state Dept of Ed and all the school districts to get rid of waste? Please do so.
You want to try introducing a plan that would pay teachers more now and get rid of the pension? Be my guest.

Great ideas!

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I am open to solutions. Unfortunately, most folks seem more content flinging poo at "the other side" rather than realizing we are all in this together whether we like it or not.

Those who want the government out of education are not "flinging poo". We honestly want better education. You say you can compete. Good! Then you should be working toward the same thing.

I think education is the primary responsibility of parenting. It's not the responsibility of "society" or "the government". The best education for a child is chosen by that child's parents. Will some parents choose more wisely than others? Yes, of course. Just like diet, when you go to the grocery store and put items in your cart, you make choices. Some people make better choices. That doesn't mean the government should tell you what to eat.

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Those who want the government out of education are not "flinging poo".

That's not at all what I was saying. My point was that on one side, you have some folks who think that teachers are all worthless, greedy, Communists. On the other side, you have some teachers screaming "Eat the rich!" Neither are being particularly helpful.

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Then you should be working toward the same thing.

I'm curious why you think I'm not doing so.