Low flying over water. Pilot shall remain un-named flying Burt Rutan's prototype Defiant homebuilt.

There used to be a picture on the wall at the FBO in Bullhead City (the old Bullhead City airport, before they moved it) of a Citabria doing a touch and go on the water in the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Once upon a time that would only have been illegal as careless and reckless...

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
There used to be a picture on the wall at the FBO in Bullhead City (the old Bullhead City airport, before they moved it) of a Citabria doing a touch and go on the water in the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Once upon a time that would only have been illegal as careless and reckless...

There used to be a picture of a Super Cub, from when we used to go down there to pick up people, and landed on sand bars.

Careless and reckless often means "outside of one's sphere of experience," rather than that the subject is truly careless, or reckless.

Old pilots and bold pilots....

I'll fly with an old, high hour pilot in almost any weather at almost anytime, than to drive with a young driver on a good day.

Having done so with both on many occasions.

I have known a lot of very low time pilots who were excellent sticks, good judgement, could carry my wife and kids and dog any day. I've known many more that were far from worthy. The same is true of the so-called old crowd, too. Old doesnt necessarily mean good. In fact, it's often a breeding ground for bad habits and really means "survived in spite of." Throwing in with someone who has had their fair share of luck may mean you're on board the day theirs decides to run out.

I knew a man who by most accounts was reported to be the most thorough, detailed, and careful that any had ever met. He made a single mistake, but it broke a 747 into three pieces and destroyed the airplane.

Books and covers. 90% f the pilts out there arent worth their weight in wet salt. The remainder are a mixed bag, some young, some old, many in between, and at all experienced levels.

Experience is often the product of learning from one's mistakes. Some never get that chance, as the mistake is the final lesson. We see that here.

Well, that's the law of probability and statistics. No one is immune to mistakes, no matter how "experienced" or "good" you are.

You can only lessen your probability and try to emplace a decision making chain that can prevent them.

I'm not a pilot, but I would like to know, other than in an emergency situation, what scenario would allow for flying under electrical wires?
I'm thinking even most military operations/training do not do that. Or do they?

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
I'm not a pilot, but I would like to know, other than in an emergency situation, what scenario would allow for flying under electrical wires?
I'm thinking even most military operations/training do not do that. Or do they?

Crop Dusters and Fire pilot-brahs think it's necessary and cool (apparently), but you'd never get me in a plane doing that.

All I have to look up is "crop duster accidents" of some fool clipping a wire and morting himself. Regardless of how easy some say it is.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
All I have to look up is "crop duster accidents" of some fool clipping a wire and morting himself. Regardless of how easy some say it is.

Agricultural application is one type of flying that never interested me. Not only low and slow, but sitting right behind a hopper full of toxic stuff. Nope, not interested.

One type of flying that I tried, once ... banner tow. Well, towing the banner isn't all that bad, but the pick-up is risky. Once was enough for me. Not only the pick-up, but during the whole tow, I was thinking, "What if the release does not work when I get back to home base and try to drop it? I really don't want to try to land while schlepping this thing."

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
I'm not a pilot, but I would like to know, other than in an emergency situation, what scenario would allow for flying under electrical wires?
I'm thinking even most military operations/training do not do that. Or do they?

Crop Dusters and Fire pilot-brahs think it's necessary and cool (apparently), but you'd never get me in a plane doing that.

All I have to look up is "crop duster accidents" of some fool clipping a wire and morting himself. Regardless of how easy some say it is.

Never heard of a "fire-brah," but then we don't fly under wires on fires.

Ag work is another matter, and it has nothing to do with being "cool." It has everything to do with doing one's job.

Clean-up passes close to the edges of fields where wires are located, sometimes entail flight beneath powerlines, and in most cases, approaching powerlines is from beneath when pulling up over them at each end of the field, or mid-run when wires cross a field.

Fires used to be conducted at much lower altitudes, but current doctrine requires 60' minimum for single engine air tankers, and 200-400' for heavy air tankers.

And yes, operations below powerlines can be done safely.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Agricultural application is one type of flying that never interested me. Not only low and slow, but sitting right behind a hopper full of toxic stuff. Nope, not interested.

Not really slow; the limiting factor is flap speed as much of the turning and some of the flying is done with flaps down, but typically 120-130 is the speed for field work. In older equipment like a Pawnee, 100 was more typical. Much faster just makes for bigger turns at the end of the field and wasted time and distance, as well as requiring maneuvering farther from powerlines, which means more cleanup area to account for around powerlines, towers, obstacles, etc.

Too much is made of the "toxic" material. I recall a pilot many years ago that did have a hopper failure enroute to a field; the rear wall of the hopper is the front wall of the cockpit, so when it failed, it flooded into the cockpit. 9 lb Parathion, which is a nerve agent, dangerous; it's absorbed through the skin. He needed to get on the ground wash it off. He spied a dike alongside a canal, and the canal had water. He made it down, got stopped along the dirt road on the dike, and got clear of the airplane. He made a beeline for the canal and would have made it, had he not run into the spinning propeller...which killed him. Too much worry about the chemical.

Stay upwind, use simple common sense, it's not a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

One type of flying that I tried, once ... banner tow. Well, towing the banner isn't all that bad, but the pick-up is risky. Once was enough for me. Not only the pick-up, but during the whole tow, I was thinking, "What if the release does not work when I get back to home base and try to drop it? I really don't want to try to land while schlepping this thing."

I started and ran a banner operation. The pickup is a non-issue if done properly. Not risky at all. It's possible for a banner to fail to release, but not a big deal. Stay higher on final to keep from snagging the banner, land a little long. Some wear damage to the banner at most. The biggest hazard in towing banners is dying of boredom.

Guppy you ever been to the Moon?

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I started and ran a banner operation. The pickup is a non-issue if done properly. Not risky at all.

I snagged the tow rope loop with the grappling hook on the first try. Beginner's luck, maybe. Then, my immediate thought was, I'm close to the ground, very high pitch angle, low airspeed, with newly added weight / drag behind me. If the engine were to sputter right now, I am truly fucked. They will be cleaning me off the runway with a sponge. Not risky? Sorry, I disagree. Maybe you have cojones mas grande, but once was enough for me.

quote:

It's possible for a banner to fail to release, but not a big deal. Stay higher on final to keep from snagging the banner, land a little long. Some wear damage to the banner at most. The biggest hazard in towing banners is dying of boredom.

Operating out of a small country airport, runway was not all that long, power lines across the approach end when landing to the south. So, if the wind was out of the north, your solution might work. Wind out of the south, the choices are either stay really high so the trailing banner won't snag a high voltage line, meaning touching down pretty far along a fairly short runway, or land to the north, staying high to touch down further along, with a tail wind. Neither option looks good.

quote:

Originally posted by RhinoWSO:
Guppy you ever been to the Moon?

By the way, Rhino, your animated selfie is cool.

When I was a kid, a family we knew lost a son who was a passenger in a single engine plane that clipped power lines. I have read of many crashes of planes and helicopters involving power lines, and in all cases I can remember, no one survived.

I give a lot of credit to life flight crews who operate near them every day, and also the Utah Department of Public Safety helicopter crew that rescues people off of mountains. They take a lot of risk dealing with the high mountain winds and conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by RhinoWSO:
Guppy you ever been to the Moon?

By the way, Rhino, your animated selfie is cool.

I mean, to be fair I didn't ask him if he was a Moonwalker, just if he'd flown there... since he seems to have flow everywhere else, it's logical question... I mean that was easy too, no big deal...

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
I'll fly with an old, high hour pilot in almost any weather at almost anytime, than to drive with a young driver on a good day.

Having done so with both on many occasions.

Not me so much, at least not without knowing the pilot very well. There are many high time pilots out there that have just repeated the same hour a whole bunch of times and not really learned anything from it.

A lot of flight time gives one the opportunity to learn a lot, but a lot of flight time doesn't guarantee that one has learned a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
There are many high time pilots out there that have just repeated the same hour a whole bunch of times and not really learned anything from it.

A lot of flight time gives one the opportunity to learn a lot, but a lot of flight time doesn't guarantee that one has learned a lot.

I have probably acquired a good deal of my aviation knowledge by teaching. Before I started instructing I had learned enough to keep from killing myself.

Once I started sitting in the coach's seat while somebody else was flying, I was able to focus on analyzing technique, looking for weak spots, and finding ways to do the job better. I was then able to apply the results of this, to my own flying. Basically, I was able to benefit from other people's mistakes without the need to make every one of those errors myself. I think that an hour of instructing is probably worth five or ten hours of flying. Even more so, when the instruction is done in a simulator, where it's possible to focus 100% on the concepts of the task that we're learning without the distractions of ATC, other traffic, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
All I have to look up is "crop duster accidents" of some fool clipping a wire and morting himself. Regardless of how easy some say it is.

Agricultural application is one type of flying that never interested me. Not only low and slow, but sitting right behind a hopper full of toxic stuff. Nope, not interested.

One type of flying that I tried, once ... banner tow. Well, towing the banner isn't all that bad, but the pick-up is risky. Once was enough for me. Not only the pick-up, but during the whole tow, I was thinking, "What if the release does not work when I get back to home base and try to drop it? I really don't want to try to land while schlepping this thing."

It interested me for a while when I was first starting to fly, before life took me in other directions. Ted Venegas, a long-time crop duster out of Santa Paula who used to do our family ranches gave some ideas on simulating dusting takeoffs. The first method (NOT recommended) was to load bags of sand or seed to take my C-140 up to and over gross, then work on taking off of SZP's short runway. The recommended method was to take off with partial power, gradually lowering the power each run until I was using most of the runway. Both simulated the same feel, but one could "fix things" a whole lot quicker by advancing the throttle on a partial power takeoff. 1900 rpm got comfortable after a while, but I never had the urge to go any lower...

I guess with the banner towing, it depends on the aircraft and approach to lifting the banner. Pete & Rowena used to tow banners with their 450hp Stearman. Their procedure was to lay the banner out beside the runway with the towline leading backwards toward where you'd begin your takeoff roll. They'd take off, fly around the pattern once, land, taxi to where they could attach the towline to the aircraft, takeoff in not very many feet and climb like a bat out of hell. The banner would peel off the runway and take off with no dragging.

As far as having a release hang up, I'd think you'd want a link in the tow rope that would break with sufficient load. Then even if you somehow do snag the banner it is not the end of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Guppy you ever been to the Moon?

Have you?

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
I mean, to be fair I didn't ask him if he was a Moonwalker, just if he'd flown there... since he seems to have flow everywhere else, it's logical question...

Moon? No. Antarctica? No. Everywhere else? Yes. Occupational necessity, and not my choice. I don't like travel, never have.

Banner towing? Yes. Corporate? Yes. Airline? Yes. Cargo? Yes. Air Ambulance? Yes. ISR? Yes. Instruction? Yes. Ag? Yes. Fire? Yes. SAR? Yes. Five quality years in Afghanistan and Iraq? yes. Yada, yada, yada. Getting far afield from the subject death, don't you think? Is this a fascination to you?

Low altitude flight? Yes. EXTENSIVELY. Broad flight background? Fairly (80+ aircraft). Not retired yet. Done everything. NO. Want to do everything? Not any more. No damn moon landings, if that's a big thing for you, and still not Yeager.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
I snagged the tow rope loop with the grappling hook on the first try. Beginner's luck, maybe. Then, my immediate thought was, I'm close to the ground, very high pitch angle, low airspeed, with newly added weight / drag behind me. If the engine were to sputter right now, I am truly fucked. They will be cleaning me off the runway with a sponge. Not risky? Sorry, I disagree. Maybe you have cojones mas grande, but once was enough for me.

Banner towing is typically the domain of very low time pilots; it's usually a time building exercise because it pays very little. It doesn't take cajones...just the ability to stay awake and fly slow.

An engine failure on pickup is not a big deal; the pickups are nearly always done near a runway. Get the nose over and land. If you're picking up a banner and climbing out at stall speed, then mistakes have been made, but that's poor piloting technique, not an indictment of picking up a banner. It's just not a big deal.

Banners have safeties built in. If the banner snags, break links are supposed to be installed, and should separate. Otherwise, land with the banner. Shorter runway with powerlines, you may still be better off landing downwind.

Snagging the banner isn't difficult; keep the hook below the tow line, engage, add power, climb just enough to keep from dragging, accelerate, climb out. Fucked, you are not...even with an engine-out. I've done a lot of tows, and can't remember every feeling endangered, at risk, or concerned about the pickup, drop, tow, or any other aspect of the operation. Much like flying low; it's not dangerous if one takes a common sense approach. If one mistreats the airplane or the operation, it's still not the operation's fault. I've towed banners with aircraft as small as a Cessna 150; just not a big deal at all.

There are many things in aviation that can be done safely, or that can be made as dangerous as one wants to be; the difference is in the person doing the operation, not in the operation itself.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
When I was a kid, a family we knew lost a son who was a passenger in a single engine plane that clipped power lines.

Along I-15, South Salt Lake area, by chance?

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
I have read of many crashes of planes and helicopters involving power lines, and in all cases I can remember, no one survived.

I've known quite a few who have hit powerlines, and survived. In fact, I've been right behind or alongside some when it happened (we used to spray fields in formation when I was a kid).

Powerlines are no joke, but if one is employed to work around them (such as ag work), they're a fact of life and something one deals with every 30 seconds or so of one's day. If one can't deal with the powerlines, one is very much in the wrong line of work. Powerlines are a critical consideration for any low altitude flight, and any straight line on the ground should be assumed to have them, whether they're visible or not. They're not always easy to see.

The fact is that there are times when it's safer to go under than over, and there are times when one has no choice.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
still not Yeager.

After reading the comments Yeager makes in his twitter account, I'd say that's a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Along I-15, South Salt Lake area, by chance?

This was during the late 70's, or early 1980's, IIRC, somewhere near Cape May County, NJ.