Today’s Wall Street Journal has an extensive article titled “The Catholic Church Has a Manpower Problem: Fewer Priests Every Year.” “Seminaries are closing or merging. Priests are doing more with less. Some parishes have no leader.”

The article discusses the trend and some of the perceived causes such as the celibacy rule but also other cultural changes. My question for Catholics* is basically what do you think about the issue?

Are you aware of it? If so, do you believe it really is a problem?
If so, why does it matter?
Do you have any ideas about how the trend might be reversed?
Have you ever considered becoming a priest yourself? If so, what affected your decision one way or the other?

I’m curious about anything you care to discuss.

https://www.wsj.com/world/cath...od=itp_wsj,djemITP_h

* This thread is not intended for non-Catholics to express their opinions about the religion, so please don’t post them here. Thank you.

My mom is a lifelong, rather avid catholic. At her church, small town MI they usually have a priest from overseas. At times it’s a little hard to understand them, English 2nd language.

I think the shortage is real.

I certainty, didn’t study the issue, but I think they should relax the rules some to do priestly duties. That could be, allow marriage, let women in, etc..

Some other churches have gone completely off the deep end. I don’t think a little adjustment is the end of the world.

Are you aware of it?
Yes.
If so, do you believe it really is a problem?
Yes.
If so, why does it matter?
We need priests to administer the sacraments.
Lay people can and do many things in the parishes, but we need more priests.
Do you have any ideas about how the trend might be reversed?
Yes, pray for and encourage vocations.
Have you ever considered becoming a priest yourself?
Not really, I got engaged right out of college.
But my son would have made a good priest.

My question for Catholics* is basically what do you think about the issue?
No discussion is complete without a discussion of the scandals involving priests and under age boys. The answer is to weed gay men out of the seminaries before they are ordained. They take a vow of celibacy, which many violate.

One possible solution is married priests. I think this would be a good idea. For the 1st 1000 years or so, the Church allowed married priests. That was ended in the belief that married priests had split loyalties. We have married deacons, many of whom would make excellent priests. I would just add that the difference between priests and deacons is really only one thing: Deacons can administer many of the sacraments. However, only priests can say mass because only priests can consecrate bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

I believe this is turning around. We have Kenrick-Glennon Seminary here in St. Louis which is mostly full.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chellim1,

The celibacy thing that is in the Roman branch exists because during the Dark and Middle Ages (after the Roman Empire fell and before the Renaissance), the property of the Church was frequently intermingled with the private/familial property of the clergy, and it became difficult to separate the one from the other.

I was born and raised Catholic and my Mom is still very devout.

The shortage is real and it is worldwide. We went back to the town in Italy where my Mom was born and raised and was surprised to learn that there had not been a priest there for 20 years. In the US, where I used to live in VA there is a very large, well funded, church that has never had a priest…crazy.

The question of Celibacy is an interesting one. If my Catholic history serves me correctly Priests (and I believe even the Pope) were not required to be celibate. I believe that changed several hundred years ago for reasons unknown to me.

I always found it ironic for unmarried priests to be giving marital advise ( the whole walk a mile in my shoes kind of thing).

quote:

The celibacy thing that is in the Roman branch exists because during the Dark and Middle Ages (after the Roman Empire fell and before the Renaissance), the property of the Church was frequently intermingled with the private/familial property of the clergy, and it became difficult to separate the one from the other.

Right. That is true.
I believe that issue can be solved in the modern era by giving the priest a stipend (which we do) so property cannot be co-mingled. Also, in the modern era more women work outside the home than in the past so the priest would not have to be the sole breadwinner for the family.

quote:

Originally posted by 2BobTanner:
The celibacy thing that is in the Roman branch exists because during the Dark and Middle Ages (after the Roman Empire fell and before the Renaissance), the property of the Church was frequently intermingled with the private/familial property of the clergy, and it became difficult to separate the one from the other.

This is quite true.

Every person has sexual urges. People want to have sex with people they love. To deny someone to ever fall in love and have sex is not natural. Allowing priests to marry and have normal lives would be a jump start to increasing the ranks of priests. And yes, I'm a protecting Catholic.

I’m a born and raised Catholic: altar boy, adult lector, parish council. Left the Church for a couple of reasons, priest scandals at the top, distance from a church factored too; however, my wife and I are working our way back to the Church. I’ve been saying the rosary with some regularity, reading the Catholic Bible, and have had a face-to-face with a priest. I do know from my career in the Forest Service and the small towns we’ve lived in that the priest shortage has been very real for a long time. In rural areas it’s not uncommon for a single priest to be serving three parishes. Masses are available at the time that the priest is available; choosing which service you attend is no longer an option.

I had no calling to be a priest myself. A priest in Williams, Arizona encouraged our young son (at the time) to become a priest. He had no calling either. That priest happened to be Malaysian.

Otherwise, all I really wanted to say is that Chellim did a wonderful job of answering all your questions and thus far has provided the best answers to your questions—in my opinion.

Fallen Catholic checking in. The whole celibacy rule has a lot of ramifications that have been very detrimental to the survival of the religion. Good candidates take a pass. You end up with a lot of people in positions of power in the church who can't maintain a healthy relationship with another human being. This adverse selection drove a lot of pedafiles into the priesthood. And when found their punishment was determined by other pedafiles.
We has a priest where I grew up that had been sent to reeducation camp in New Mexico before being sent to our parish. I'm convinced he played a part in the suicide of a guy I knew.

Also had the priest that married us who was genuinely top notch. Unfortunately they are rare.

This is something the Jewish faith seems to have a better process on. Wouldn't you want your best people to procreate?

The Catholic Church seems to be in a bit of crisis in general.

I was born into a Catholic family but was not raised Catholic as my Dad was "born again" in the mid 1970's and married another former Catholic when I was 7 and was raised Protestant. One of my sisters married a Catholic and re-converted back.

But most of the rest of my family remained Catholic, I remember there were like 4 different Catholic churches alone in my Grandmother's little Northeast Philly neighborhood of Bridesburg. Today there is one left IIRC. And the church she attended all her life was torn down recently so I'm glad she's already gone because that would have killed her.

There seems to be a whole lot of consolidation going on with the Catholic Church in an attempt to stay afloat and I wonder if this rule with the Priests has anything to do with it. Ironically enough it's my understanding that it's the exact opposite with Jewish Rabbis; that most of them ARE married and it's not normal to be single?

One of my granddaughters was Baptized in the Catholic Church by a Lay Minister. He's married and has a family of his own .

Cradle Catholic here.

My wife is a convert and I was able to introduce her to the Latin Liturgy when we lived in Colorado. That was growing in popularity until the previous Pope took steps to shut it down. That seemed to us to be bringing people back who had drifted off like we had.

Here in NW Oklahoma we have a single priest that ministers to 3 different parishes. Both the current one and the one before that were from India. We hadn't run into that before and didn't realize how serious the shortage is.

Not because of the priests, but I've drifted off again because of the Vatican II liturgy.

I was raised Catholic to the point of confirmation. I am a "born again" Protestant now. My mother is still catholic, though has only recently started attending mass again after a fifteen year hiatus, due to my encouragement. I often consider myself as a sort of mediator or bipartisan apologist. I'll make the case for Catholic or Protestant, depending on the context of a given conversation. I refer to the Catholic Catechism in study and I'll defend Catholicism if I feel it's being unfairly criticized.

My uncle has been a Catholic priest for almost thirty years. I should ask him about the shortage.

I recall visiting priests from foreign countries executing the mass when I went as a boy. Considering these foreign-born priests are seemingly more than visitors now, is it safe to say that there is specifically an American priest shortage? Not just a general Catholic priest shortage?

I didn't know that history of the vow of celibacy. I always found the vow very admirable, but I agree that it isn't necessary. Even more-so considering the fact that it isn't a tradition inherited from the early church.

That sounds like a Christian shortage, not a pastor shortage. Supply and demand? Perhaps the perceived Catholic priest shortage is due, in part, to a decrease in attendance.

A small congregation requires less work of a priest or pastor. So, if church populations have shrunk, there's no reason the population of pastors and priests shouldn't as well. When one priest or pastor can cover three small churches with the same amount of effort it would take to pastor one larger church, then what's the difference?

Is it also perhaps a function of transportation evolution? We see tiny dying churches as a depressing sign of diminishing faith in Christ, but there are plenty of growing churches that people travel to every week. Church buildings are everywhere where I live. Presumably because folks used to walk to them, or use other more primitive forms of transportation. Nobody travelled 15-30 miles to church when all these churches were built. That's not uncommon nowadays though.

This is just a stream-of-consciousness now. Good conversation. Thanks, fellas.

Though I am not a Catholic. And I am not directly addressing sigfreund's OP questions. He knows he can tell me to hush, if he wants.

One other relevant thought: Another Catholic priest in my family, my mother's cousin, left the priesthood after over two decades (I think) to...drumroll...have a wife! So the celibacy thing doesn't only serve to hinder the numbers on the front end, but is also skimming them off the back end too!

My mother is also friends with another man who used to be a Catholic priest.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
That sounds like a Christian shortage, not a pastor shortage. Supply and demand? Perhaps the perceived Catholic priest shortage is due, in part, to a decrease in attendance.

I've heard that church attendance has increased a bit. Even prior to the Charlie Kirk event.
Increased attendance of the flock could put pressure on the current number of shepherds.

I hope that's right. I can't say I have perceived any significant shift one way or the other at my church, in terms of congregation size. We're steady seeing people saved though, so that's a growth in believers.

The catholic grade school I attended in the early 1960's closed years ago, and as of a couple months ago was used to house illegal immigrants (Catholic Charities project?).

I am not a Catholic, but I wish I could be. The RCC has only itself to blame for it's current situation. I hope they turn things around but I'm exceptionally doubtful. I'm sure the Pentecostals will take them in.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
That sounds like a Christian shortage, not a pastor shortage.

You raise an interesting point, but although I’m not supposed to post the entire article (maybe someone can find it where it’s not behind a paywall), it does document many examples of shortages. The clearest examples, I believe, are how numbers of enrollees at seminaries have declined drastically. Could congregation sizes affect some men’s willingness to become priests? I suppose that’s possible for some, but the article also points out that many American churches have foreign-born priests.

I didn’t intend to limit comments from anyone if they are directed at my original question, and are respectful of the religion. I was trying to discourage a bunch of general Catholic-bashing posts that tend to derail the discussion.

Coincidentally, in performing other research, I saw that celibacy was one of the primary factors in "the great schism" of 1054. The Eastern church's priests/pastors could marry; the Western church favored the celibacy approach.

I have passively observed mentions of a contemporary shift toward Eastern Orthodoxy, in Christian social media. Presumably the celibacy issue has something to do with it.