quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
^^when I was in, I saw people who tested hot for cocaine discharged just to get rid of them. And many were honorable but were barred from re enlisting .

Most likely what happened here

That's interesting. Guess if this guy plays his cards right he can still have a future.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
I really don’t understand. I don’t remember the details, but I dimly remember some cop buying a blue label glock, then selling to his uncle (maybe transferring to uncle through an FFL, details fuzzy in my head) and he got hammered. Went pretty high up the legal chain if I remember correctly. And this idiot does several straw sales and ATF tells him to knock it off? WTAF?!

I remember that case. It went to the SC. The uncle was a dummy. Problem was the uncle wrote a check to his nephew specifically for the gun and dated it before the Blue Label purchase was made. They left a paper trail that was hard to argue out of. They violated the letter of the law but not the spirit and intent of the law. Glock could also argue that he was abusing the Blue Label program.

Abramski v. United States

Thanks for the details. Not arguing the uncle and nephew weren’t stupid or that they shouldn’t have been prosecuted. Just seems like if he can get hammered for that this rocket surgeon should have been hammered in the first place, not told to knock it off.

The Abramski case involved a straw sale-a clear paper trail showed that Abramski was buying the gun for his uncle, and he lied on the 4473 when he stated that he was the actual buyer. (Many think it was a poor decision, as in that case the uncle could have legally bought the gun himself-"no harm, no foul" argument).

In the current case, there was no straw purchase. The law is not so clear cut on how many sales makes one a "dealer". So it's not too unreasonable for the ATF to get wind of the guy and tell him to get an FFL or knock it off.

There is no absolute time limit; I could certainly buy a new gun, take it home and dry fire it for an hour, and decide to sell it. No problem there. If I routinely list guns for sale shortly after buying them, then I need to have an FFL.

I see many people advertising on local forums and classifieds that I think are mostly likely violating the law. Many AR "builders" who buy parts, put together the rifle, and then list it for sale. I don't think they're a primary target of the BATF, but if they get on the radar, they'll probably get a warning before they come down hard on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I was trying to put this scenario into words for my gf, and basically as I understand the military rules are kinda round peg goes in round hole and square peg in square hole and whatever they call what this guy did somehow fell under honorable discharge? I've run into some weird stuff like that in the past and was curious if that was the case here. Would like to know the details if that's the case.

The military has clear rules of what constitutes Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct discharge, etc and how those are doled out.

Just because someone has an incident on the outside world doesn't mean the military will pursue it via the UCMJ.

He was likely a good sailor, judging by the ribbons in the photo (Good Conduct ribbon and dual warfare qualified as an E-4), so likely the military command's thought was "He did some stuff selling guns and the Feds hammered him - he's getting punished already" and they separated him without administering any UCMJ violations.

There could be plenty of nuances to it, but if he was a grade A shit-bird in the Navy, the command would likely go the extra mile to hit him with something.

Additionally he was discharged in December, which could have been before he was found guilty and sentenced. He might just declined to re-enlist and with nothing charged, no reason not to get an Honorable discharge.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Straw sale, charge his ass.

This is not a straw sale. He was a dealer in firearms without a license. He very clearly violated the law, if the acts described in the article are true.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I was trying to put this scenario into words for my gf, and basically as I understand the military rules are kinda round peg goes in round hole and square peg in square hole and whatever they call what this guy did somehow fell under honorable discharge? I've run into some weird stuff like that in the past and was curious if that was the case here. Would like to know the details if that's the case.

The military has clear rules of what constitutes Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct discharge, etc and how those are doled out.

Just because someone has an incident on the outside world doesn't mean the military will pursue it via the UCMJ.

He was likely a good sailor, judging by the ribbons in the photo (Good Conduct ribbon and dual warfare qualified as an E-4), so likely the military command's thought was "He did some stuff selling guns and the Feds hammered him - he's getting punished already" and they separated him without administering any UCMJ violations.

There could be plenty of nuances to it, but if he was a grade A shit-bird in the Navy, the command would likely go the extra mile to hit him with something.

Additionally he was discharged in December, which could have been before he was found guilty and sentenced. He might just declined to re-enlist and with nothing charged, no reason not to get an Honorable discharge.

Makes sense.

We now have something of a bright line.

Apparently BATFE starts to pay attention before 60 guns bought and sold for profit, and brings action at 60 guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
We now have something of a bright line.

Apparently BATFE starts to pay attention before 60 guns bought and sold for profit, and brings action at 60 guns.

It’s only fair; they didn’t start acting on their own chicanery with Fast and Furious until about 2000 guns had walked away.

I'd like to know what the guy's username is on VAGT

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Originally posted by PeteF:

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Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Straw sale, charge his ass.

How is buying a firearm and selling it at a layer point in time to a previously unknown buyer a straw purchase? Answer: it isn't. It isn't what he was accused of or convicted for either. His transactions were individually legal. He just had so many of them, the ATF said he was a dealer without a license.

"Less than three hours after the purchase, a potential buyer responded to an advertisement for the weapon. Later that day, he sold it to the person"

How long after the original sale was it posted, if he was getting responses after 3 hrs, its almost assured he posted it immediately. This isn't a case of I didn't like so I sold it. This is a case of a guy try to make extra bucks selling guns.

I once saw a wealthy guy buy a gun from a gun shop that also had a gun range. He bought 50 rounds of ammo, walked into the range, shot it and then walked back out and traded it for something else because he didn't like it.

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
I'd like to know what the guy's username is on VAGT

Yes, I would like to know as well.

RHINOWSO covered the discharges.

Regarding the story, I wouldn't trust the reporters to know what type he got.

I'll just add that there is also one more, the "dishonorable discharge" in addition to the "bad conduct discharge." Both of those require a Court Martial and probably mean you spent time in military prison. Dishonorable is the worst.

The other than honorable, general, and honorable are all administrative. Other than honorable is typically for shit-birds like druggies who get kicked out. Sometimes they may step on it and still get a general discharge if they were a pretty good soldier on balance with other mitigating circumstances (like did a successful combat tour or 2).

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I once saw a wealthy guy buy a gun from a gun shop that also had a gun range. He bought 50 rounds of ammo, walked into the range, shot it and then walked back out and traded it for something else because he didn't like it.

I assume there is a point providing that anecdote of a completely legal event occurring?

Or maybe not...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I once saw a wealthy guy buy a gun from a gun shop that also had a gun range. He bought 50 rounds of ammo, walked into the range, shot it and then walked back out and traded it for something else because he didn't like it.

I assume there is a point providing that anecdote of a completely legal event occurring?

Or maybe not...

That IT IS possible for someone to buy a new gun with the legal intention of owning it and then selling it one hour later for a legitament reason.

Now doing it 60 times, might be hard to explain.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Now doing it 60 times, might be hard to explain.

There is no limit in the law and you never ever owe the gov't. an explanation.

^^^^

True, and the burden of proof is on the govt. to show intent to be a dealer without a license...and this dumbass made it easy.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenInWV:
I could be wrong (probably am, as I'm not a JAG) but I doubt there are any charges in the UCMJ that cover what he was doing "civilian side". Rape, murder, robbery, etc....that's in the UCMJ, therefore it'd impact your type of discharge. I imagine he just got a bar to reenlist.

The Navy had no reason to waste time and money on him as the ATF was already taking care of the matter. If they were to charge him it would have been under Article 134, which is a general article for any crime not specifically listed.

Here's the bottom line. If the ATF warns you to stop doing what you are doing, you have just been given a gift. It is time to switch to selling cabbage patch babies on ebay.

quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:
Here's the bottom line. If the ATF warns you to stop doing what you are doing, you have just been given a gift. It is time to switch to selling cabbage patch babies on ebay.

But know this: You'll have the Consumer Product Safety Commission to deal with.

quote:

Originally posted by honestlou:


I see many people advertising on local forums and classifieds that I think are mostly likely violating the law. Many AR "builders" who buy parts, put together the rifle, and then list it for sale. I don't think they're a primary target of the BATF, but if they get on the radar, they'll probably get a warning before they come down hard on them.

I know a few guys who are regulars at the local gun shows who have gotten warnings from the BATF for frequent buying and re-selling.

Yeah, people tiptoe along the line on this topic quite frequently.

I met a FAM at the range who was interested in my SBR SCARs / Suppressors.

In conversation he talked about his hobby of building AR15s and selling them to people when he was done, to which I rolled my eyes (on the inside, quiet voice like).