Other than a small story on Fox today, anybody got info on this ? Seems that 20 Indian soldiers were killed and an unknown number of Chinese.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: x0225095,

facts are emerging

I have read it was hand-to-hand combat -- no gunfire

the conditions are inhospitable and some may have died of exposure

brutal

we may never get a truthful tally of Chinese casualties for obvious reasons

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I saw this too and am looking for more info and can’t find it


Strange....to me something like this should be front page news.....the fact that two nuclear powers were involved in a large enough conflict that 20 Indian soldiers were killed

There aren’t many days 20 Americans have been killed in a single day in the GWOT (excepting, of course, 9/11). Operation Red Wing is the only one that springs immediately to mind (I lost a battalion mate from USMA that day)

Losing half a platoon is a BIG DEAL...and that was just killed....how many wounded?

And crickets.....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i...s-deadly-11592305962

Both sides have restrictions to weapons, so the Chinese put nails and spikes into clubs. They beat the Indians and left them to die, from what I read in the link above. China keeps pushing, pushing, pushing. Super aggressive, kind of like Japan 60+ years ago.
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NEW DELHI—India said 20 of its soldiers died in a clash with Chinese troops along the two countries’ disputed border in the Himalayan Mountains, the worst military confrontation between the nuclear-armed neighbors in decades.

The Indian government said Chinese troops also suffered casualties. A Chinese spokesman said a clash took place after Indian soldiers “provocatively attacked” in an area China considers under its control, but he didn’t comment on whether troops on either side were killed or injured.

It was unclear how the Indian soldiers died, but a senior military official said some were beaten to death with clubs embedded with nails in a clash that didn’t involve shooting. Protocols agreed to by both sides have restricted the use of guns in confrontations as a way of preventing clashes from turning deadly.

As many as 17 of the Indian troops may have died of exposure in the high-altitude cold after being injured in the fighting, the senior military official said.

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India blamed the fighting on Chinese troops operating in an area under Indian control. “India is very clear that all its activities are always within the Indian side,” India’s Foreign Ministry said. “We expect the same of the Chinese side.”

The confrontation further escalates tensions that flared in recent weeks along the 2,000-mile Himalayan border China shares with India. China has pressed other controversial territorial disputes in recent years, stoking anxiety among its neighbors by building military installations in the South China Sea, extending control over Hong Kong and moving to deny Taiwan, which it sees as part of China, legitimacy and participation in international forums.

India, while steering clear of overtly joining global criticism of China, has nonetheless drawn Chinese ire for its increasingly close relationship with the U.S., including burgeoning military ties. China also sharply criticized India’s move last year to place Kashmir, a disputed area India has long treated as a domestic state and is also claimed by Pakistan, directly under central government control after decades of allowing the region limited autonomy.

Deadly Border Dispute
Twenty Indian soldiers died during a clash along the disputed border between China and India.

100 miles

Galwan Valley

100 km

Leh

AKSAI CHIN

Islamabad

LADAKH

Disputed by

China and India

CHINA

PAKISTAN

INDIA

Detail

NEPAL

New Delhi

INDIA

Source: Times Atlas of the World (disputed boundaries)
The increasing tensions between Beijing and New Delhi have drawn attention from U.S. officials and coincide with Trump administration efforts to build security ties with India as its own ties with China have frayed. Security cooperation also has grown among a group called the “Quad” that includes the U.S., India, Japan and Australia.

“This is going to strengthen India’s resolve to treat the U.S. as a partner and strengthen cooperation with the other Quad partners to better insulate itself against Chinese aggression,” said Jeff Smith, South Asia expert at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. “I would expect some form of condemnation of Chinese aggression from the administration.”

A State Department spokeswoman on Tuesday offered condolences to the families of the Indian soldiers and backed a peaceful resolution to the conflict. “We are closely monitoring the situation between Indian and Chinese forces along the Line of Actual Control,” the spokeswoman said.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on Tuesday headed to Hawaii, without announcing what meetings he had scheduled. Mr. Pompeo is planning to meet China’s top diplomat, Yang Jiechi, on Wednesday, according to people familiar with the matter.

China and India have long managed tensions and troop movements along their disputed border—referred to as the Line of Actual Control—especially at this time of year when snows melt and more of the high-altitude territory becomes accessible for patrols and the building of infrastructure.

The two countries fought a full-scale war in 1962, and another series of deadly battles in 1967. Starting in the early 1990s, the two sides hammered out a series of protocols and procedures to try to contain the border disputes and prevent outbreaks of violence from escalating.

These agreements guided where and how troops would patrol, what weapons could be carried, where military installations would be built and how close weapons and airplanes could be positioned near the disputed areas.

Monday’s fatalities were the first along the border since 1975, when four Indian soldiers were killed by Chinese forces while patrolling a disputed area.

Clashes in the Himalayan Mountains have increased in recent years, usually consisting of fist fights, rock throwing and beatings with sticks when patrols from the two sides encounter each other in disputed areas. Significant incidents took place in 2013 and 2014 along the border.

In 2017, Indian and Chinese troops staged a monthslong standoff over a Chinese road being built on a stretch of land between China and Bhutan, an Indian ally, that India regards as crucial to defending its claims against China. China and India eventually worked out a deal for their troops to step back. Chinese leader Xi Jinping and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi held several informal summits after the confrontation to smooth over relations.

Chinese and Indian troops have now faced off for more than a month along a remote stretch of the mountainous frontier, following a brawl between units patrolling one of the disputed areas. Since then, skirmishes have broken out at other disputed Himalayan border points, including along the northeastern part of India where scores of Indian and Chinese soldiers last month shouted at each other and exchanged physical blows, leaving some on both sides injured.

In recent weeks, both countries have moved thousands of more troops and armaments to a strategic border point near a high-altitude glacial lake, according to experts and government officials.

MORE
Border Conflict: What We Know So Far
The fatalities in Monday’s dispute are a worrisome indication that the agreements governing military activities in and around the disputed border could be fraying, said Tanvi Madan, an expert on India-China relations with the Brookings Institution in Washington.

“Things could have been much worse if the systems weren’t in place,” she said. “But it hasn’t ensured no casualties, and in that sense it’s breaking down.”

Thank you Steve for posting that.


Clubs with nails


I think if I was an Indian soldier I’d have a kukri with me at all times



and a shotgun

The BBC has been reporting this over the past few months.

This incident:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53071913

Probably the same news as told by a previous poster, but I posted it if anyone wanted to read the BBC version.

you’d think that if they had to guard an area with no guns that the Chinese would have some old school nunchucks,swords, and ninja swords and stuff. Not trailer park melee weapons like a club with nails in it

Its been a long, long simmering issue that is starting to bubble up again. China is trying to control the mountainous regions that surround it's Southwestern and Southeastern borders to maintain control of the rivers and drainages for hydro-electric purposes. By controlling Himalayas, Karakorams, and other Central Asia mountain ranges, satisfies long-time hegemonic impulses from their Empire days (to include both CCP & Nationalists), provides them the high ground for defense and most important, controls the water sources to irrigate what arable farmland they have.


China turned down proposal to demarcate LAC for 174 yrs

quote:

Since 1846, when the British took over J&K post the first Anglo-Sikh War, an attempt was made to have a boundary and was quickly followed up in 1847. In all, the British proposed boundaries — five separate ones in 1846-47, 1865, 1873, 1899 and 1914, China rejected each of them. Britain got China to send in troops during World War I and II, but the boundary remained undecided.

Major Alexandar Cunnigham, who led the British attempt in 1847 to demarcate the boundary, details this in his 1854 book “Ladakh Physical, Statistical and Geographical”. He narrates “The settlement of this boundary (between Ladakh and Tibet) was of some importance”.

In 1834, the Dogra Army, led by General Zorawar Singh, captured Ladakh. During the Sino-Sikh War (1841–42), the Qing Empire invaded Ladakh, but the Sino-Tibetan army was defeated and “a letter of agreement” was signed in 1842.
...
Sequence of events post Independence

1947: Chinese army enters Tibet
1950: India unilaterally declares McMahon Line in Arunachal as its boundary
1954: India claims Aksai Chin as part of its northern border
1958: India discovers China has built a road over the plateau of Aksai Chin
1959: PM Nehru rejects Chou En-lai’s letter accusing Indians of overstepping McMahon Line
1960: China bizarrely expands its claim on another 5,100 sq km of the territory in eastern Ladakh
1960: China wants status quo — India keeps NEFA (now Arunachal), while China keeps Aksai Chin — northeast edge of J&K
1961: In November, India launches forward policy to retain control over territory
1962: In Oct-Nov, India-China go to war
1993: Pact is inked on maintenance of peace along LAC
2014: PM Modi suggests demarcation of LAC, China says let representatives resolve it

"Senior officers recounted extreme Chinese brutality to the Indian prisoners, with some of them being pushed over cliffs & soldiers’ bodies being recovered from the Galwan River." -
@ajaishukla

Link

War the old fashioned way- With rocks, clubs and fists.

Considering the over population of both countries....

Sooo, 'Gun Control' doesn't work....And people kill people! Who knew?

Guess its time to suggest the OP here modify his thread title. Not seeing any suggestion of shooting, but it does garner attention. Back to alarming thread titles that have nothing to do with reality. Didn't we just have a warning about those? OK, its hard to have shooting when neither side carries firearms. But saying it gets everyone to read. I'm thinking the OP works for the headline dept of a major news agency here in the US. Make sure its alarmist enough to get us all to read, even if it bears no relationship to the story or reality.

Easy, rburg... No need for accusations or namecalling. It doesn't appear to be intentional. OP had just heard a blurb about a border conflict with 20+ killed, and was asking for more details.

It wasn't until later that a poster provided the news story about the clubbings.

It's natural when you hear about an international border conflict with 20+ soldiers dead to assume it would involve modern military weapons. When you hear about a military conflicts in the 21st century, your first inclination isn't that it probably involved clubbing soldiers with nailed bats.

Besides, "shooting war" doesn't necessarily imply shooting guns specifically. It's a catch-all term for active military conflict, which can involve any manner of weaponry. As opposed to a cold war of espionage and positioning.

https://www.merriam-webster.co...onary/shooting%20war

quote:

a war or warfare involving military operations and actual conflict between armed forces

I'd say a border incursion in which enemy soldiers slaughtered 20+ soldiers in hand-to-hand combat counts as "warfare involving actual conflict between armed forces", even if it's a bit unconventional in this day and age.

Read about this a week ago in the Windows 10 news feed of all places. So only now is it getting any coverage at all in the mass market US media? Ye gads, who would've thunk that?

Never take a baseball bat (China) to a cricket match (India)

quote:

Originally posted by rburg:
Guess its time to suggest the OP here modify his thread title. Not seeing any suggestion of shooting, but it does garner attention. Back to alarming thread titles that have nothing to do with reality. Didn't we just have a warning about those? OK, its hard to have shooting when neither side carries firearms. But saying it gets everyone to read. I'm thinking the OP works for the headline dept of a major news agency here in the US. Make sure its alarmist enough to get us all to read, even if it bears no relationship to the story or reality.

I do. I work for the Old Gray Lady...The New York Times!

Yeah. No.

I just assumed that since 20 freakin’ Indian soldiers died that there must have been some shooting of some kind. Small weapons, mortars, artillery, etc. I never thought, and reasonably so, that the contemporary soldiers of two nuclear powers would be clubbing their opponent to death with clubs laden with nails and spikes and then proceed to throw their bodies off a cliff. My mistake.

As for your request to change the thread title for the sake of accuracy I certainly should, and I will, but the thread title wasn’t posted for the dramatic reasons you suggest as the story on Fox at the time offered no information about the manner of the confrontation. Your mistake.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: x0225095,

That is some wacky shit. Subscribed.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
some may have died of exposure

I read up to 50 dead on the Chinese side. and many died of exposure to gravity. Apparently the Indian colonel was tossed off a cliff...

IMO, we are headed inexorably towards an armed military global conflict started by the Chinese. They are emphatically trying to rule the planet as manifest destiny.