I have no doubt that this guy is not Mr. Clean, but he's being charged with multiple crimes based no how miscreants used his software? How about charging the CEO's of every telecom outfit in the world for people using their telephones to commit criminal acts and "disseminating misinformation?" Or putting Forrest Mars's kids in jail for "making people fat?"

It is akin to holding firearm manufacturers liable for crimes committed by gang bangers.

Ridiculous!

I could be misreading this, but it seems that he (and those on his side) is claiming "free speech". I don't think that argument holds water. Folks on his platform are planning terrorist acts and he is allowing it. Free speech has its limitations. You can't yell theater in a crowded firehouse ( ) , for example.

If nothing else, he could, and perhaps should, be charged with being an accessory to "terrorism, narcotics trafficking, and fraud".

I look at it this way: I have a few friends over some evening and we're all sitting around a fire sipping whiskey and smoking cigars. My friends start talking about, and planning, an act of terrorism. Even if I don't participate in the conversation in any way, I have direct knowledge that it took place and that these plans were made. Could/should I be charged as an accessory? I think in many jurisdictions I would be.

Or, if my friends ask me if I know of a place to go where they can plan out a terrorist act and I say, "sure, come over and sit around my fire pit". I still don't take part in their conversaton in any way, but I'd bet that I'd still be charged...with something.

I'm leaning towards the authorities on this one, but I'll need to give it more thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
My friends start talking about, and planning, an act of terrorism. Even if I don't participate in the conversation in any way, I have direct knowledge that it took place and that these plans were made. Could/should I be charged as an accessory? I think in many jurisdictions I would be.

So you believe Durov listened in on terrorist conversations, and failed to report them?

quote:

Or, if my friends ask me if I know of a place to go where they can plan out a terrorist act and I say, "sure, come over and sit around my fire pit". I still don't take part in their conversaton (sic) in any way, but I'd bet that I'd still be charged...with something.

Is there evidence Durov marketed Telegram to the underworld and terrorists as a mechanism to plan illegal activity to avoid prosecution?

I had never heard of Durov nor Telegram before, so I am not sure I care about him or his platform. On the other hand, privacy and how far governments can stretch their desire to invade it is of great concern to me. Looks like Durov is making the claim, "I just own the platform, it isn't my fault if people mis-use it." Certainly governments would love to turn all platform owners into snitches and agents for them by making them responsible for the way in which their platforms are used. Clearly, if Telegram is deliberately setup as a vehicle for terrorism and criminal activity, then Durov is responsible for his role in that.

I’m wondering about the folks that have created secure messaging apps such as Signal.

Lots legitimate uses (although governments don’t like ‘em), but no doubt some people use such apps for nefarious purposes. I have Signal on my iPhone.

Well, it sounds like he committed that most heinous of crimes in France....he didn't pay off the right people.

Various Governments have been after him for quite a while as they don't like it when they don't have full control of ALL the information, and an ability to either capture it, or censor it! Here's a good interview of Pavel Durov by Tucker Carlson the sheds some light:

You can’t arrest the mailman for delivering mail containing nefarious ideas. Now if you told the mailman and he delivered it anyway, different story.

It’s my understanding that most Russians use it instead of most other platforms and since Russia is now Public Enemy Number 1 again after 30+ years, it makes sense they’d go after him.

Actually, as I understand it Russians use it to avoid KGB/FSB surveillance.

Whatever the situation with Durov, the threats to arrest Elon Musk because he allows free (but not illegal) speech on X is a better tell that France and the EU want to control their opposition, what they call "far-right" folks--most, but not all, of whom are like us MAGA folks. We want to be in charge, not the government.

Seems like a TRUE free speech platform, unlike FB.
I guess the NSA doesn't like it neither.

This is an interesting case. First, unlike other self-styled defenders of free speech like Julian Assange and Elon Musk, who ended up pushing their own politics via their platforms (let's not even talk of types like Kim Schmitz AKA Kim Dotcom, a career fraud who started off with making fake credit cards and only discovered activism when the US issued a warrant for him over mass copyright infringement via his Megaupload file-sharing service), Durov seems to be a true believer in neutrality. As noted, he gave Russian authorities the finger when they demanded that he block dissidents and surrender user data to them, both on his Facebook equivalent VK and later Telegram; left Russia, bought himself a St. Kitts and Nevis citizenship, later added those of France and the United Arab Emirates, moved his base first to Berlin, then Dubai. Where he gave Western authorities the same finger when they demanded that he block extremists and criminals, and surrender user data to them.

He still seems aware that there are limits to free speech; he cooperated with Europol to stomp out the presence of the "Islamic State" on Telegram, and conditions of use include no criminal activities, calls for violence, etc. The gripe of the French and others apparently is that it's not enforced very much, whether out of principle or to save on effort and cost. As for the Russians, they tried to block Telegram for several years without success, then made a virtue out of necessity and used it to push their political line, even for widespread military use to supplement the cumbersome official comms system. They still despise Durov though; even their current drive to make him a martyr of free speech against the evil West is accompanied by snide remarks of "see what your neutrality gets you now".

The big question is why he went to France in the first place when he knew they had a warrant out for him. There were reports he had avoided Europe overall for legal reasons, preferring to travel between the UAE and South America, though Telegram said after his arrest that he had visited Europe before. Apparently he arrived from Azerbaijan, and Russian media claimed he had tried to meet Vladimir Putin who was there at the same time, but was denied. Indeed France is under the great circle route from Azerbaijan to St. Kitts, and another claim was that he didn't want to land there, but his private jet needed to refuel. I find that unconvincing; unless the about 200 miles would have made a critical difference, he could have stopped over a little earlier in Switzerland. And if you assume that the Swiss would have detained him just the same by way of European judicial cooperation, Morocco would have been an alternative with just a little more planning and flight time.

So either he had a "national laws don't apply to me because I'm rich, famous, and a citizen of the world" attitude, or he went there to give himself up. Which is an interesting thought, with his alleged attempt to meet Putin making it look like he was trying to get something from one or the other side. I'm just not sure if a "the keys to my messenger in return for guarantees" type of deal makes real sense here, as I don't know how much he is actually connected to the guts and operation of Telegram at this point. There are those who suggest that the messenger's encryption is spotty at best, and both Russian and American intelligence have no trouble reading along.

^^^^^
Thanks BansheeOne. A very informative post.

quote:

I'm just not sure if a "the keys to my messenger in return for guarantees" type of deal makes real sense here, as I don't know how much he is actually connected to the guts and operation of Telegram at this point. There are those who suggest that the messenger's encryption is spotty at best, and both Russian and American intelligence have no trouble reading along.

I'm certainly no tech guru. I mostly don't understand the nuts and bolts. Is anything truly "secure" or private? I don't know, but I do use both Signal and Telegram. It's got to be better than regular texting, imessage or FB messenger.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

I'm just not sure if a "the keys to my messenger in return for guarantees" type of deal makes real sense here, as I don't know how much he is actually connected to the guts and operation of Telegram at this point. There are those who suggest that the messenger's encryption is spotty at best, and both Russian and American intelligence have no trouble reading along.

I'm certainly no tech guru. I mostly don't understand the nuts and bolts. Is anything truly "secure" or private? I don't know, but I do use both Signal and Telegram. It's got to be better than regular texting, imessage or FB messenger.

It's an arms race. Secure today is not necessarily secure tomorrow, and I'm sure it would blow all of our our minds if we really had any idea about the kinds of snooping capabilities that already quietly exist.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I'm certainly no tech guru. I mostly don't understand the nuts and bolts. Is anything truly "secure" or private? I don't know, but I do use both Signal and Telegram. It's got to be better than regular texting, imessage or FB messenger.

It is easy, perhaps even trivial, to use modern crytographic technologies to communicate securely with another person.

However, when you are talking commercial or freeware services that facilitate this on a large scale, you have to assume a compromise before you start. As noted above, Govt's have a vested interest in intercepting and reviewing all communications, and they are not shy about spending resources to ensure this. The fact that they are persecuting Durov is a strong indication that Telegraph, at least. is not open to their information gathering efforts, or maybe it is, and this is nothing more than a disinformation campaign intended to make Telegraph users think that they are not subject to being surveilled.

quote:

Is anything truly "secure" or private?

Probably not, but the Govts. don't want you to know either way. They prefer that you stay ignorant, and let FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) take over. I don't think we have yet gotten to the point where they routinely intercept everything they can, instead settling for targetting specific individuals and organizations, but if that day isn't already here, it isn't far away. One of the most effective tools for picking gold nuggets out of a raging torrent of data is AI, and much of the effort behind AI research is to facilitate this. So it is only going to get worse, you won't be able to fart without some Govt. flunky sticking his nose up your ass.

Telegram founder Pavel Durov hit with criminal charges in France after refusing to help authorities wiretap users

https://nypost.com/2024/08/28/...ities-wiretap-users/

Telegram CEO Pavel Durov was charged Wednesday with being complicit in the spread of crime on the popular messaging app, including child sex abuse, drug trafficking, and fraud, officials said.

Durov, who was arrested on Saturday in Paris, was released on a $5.6 million bail and ordered to stay in France as officials continue to investigate the allegations against Telegram, Bloomberg reports.

Among the charges was an allegation that he refused to help French authorities wiretap users of the site who were suspected of crimes, Paris prosecutors said.

As part of his bail condition, Durov, a Russian-born dual-French citizen, may not leave France and must check in at a police station twice a week.

Prosecutor Laure Beccuau accused Durov, 39, of showing a “near-total absence” of replies to legal demands from officials looking for Telegram to help crack down on crime tied to its services.

Beccuau said other nations “have shared the same observation.”

“That’s what led JUNALCO to open an investigation into the possible criminal responsibility of the messaging app’s executives in the commission of these offenses,” Beccuau said, noting that her office was specifically targeting organized crime.

Representatives for Durov could not be immediately reached for comment.

Telegram founder Pavel Durov hit with criminal charges in France after refusing to help authorities wiretap users
By Ronny Reyes
Published Aug. 28, 2024, 4:31 p.m. ET


Telegram CEO Pavel Durov was charged Wednesday with being complicit in the spread of crime on the popular messaging app, including child sex abuse, drug trafficking, and fraud, officials said.

Durov, who was arrested on Saturday in Paris, was released on a $5.6 million bail and ordered to stay in France as officials continue to investigate the allegations against Telegram, Bloomberg reports.

Telegram co-founder Pavel Durov smiling after a meeting in Jakarta, Indonesia on August 1, 2017.
Pavel Durov, the Russian-born founder of messaging app Telegram, was arrested in France on Saturday after landing on a private jet from Azerbaijan.

Among the charges was an allegation that he refused to help French authorities wiretap users of the site who were suspected of crimes, Paris prosecutors said.

As part of his bail condition, Durov, a Russian-born dual-French citizen, may not leave France and must check in at a police station twice a week.

Prosecutor Laure Beccuau accused Durov, 39, of showing a “near-total absence” of replies to legal demands from officials looking for Telegram to help crack down on crime tied to its services.


French judges to decide on next step in Durov probe
Beccuau said other nations “have shared the same observation.”

“That’s what led JUNALCO to open an investigation into the possible criminal responsibility of the messaging app’s executives in the commission of these offenses,” Beccuau said, noting that her office was specifically targeting organized crime.

Representatives for Durov could not be immediately reached for comment.

Follow the latest on the arrest of Telegram founder Pavel Durov:

Telegram founder Pavel Durov hit with criminal charges in France after refusing to help authorities wiretap users
How Russia could use Pavel Durov’s arrest to finally bring Telegram under Kremlin control

Telegram founder Pavel Durov released from police custody to face questioning after arrest in France
Who is Telegram founder Pavel Durov? Billionaire arrested in Paris — years after clashing with Kremlin over free speech
Mystery blonde traveling with secretive Telegram CEO was posting trip on social media before he was arrested — and now she’s missing
With more than 900 million users around the globe, Telegram has been accused of allowing criminals and terror groups to use their services with little to no oversight.

It’s also the primary social media service in Russia, where even the military uses the app to coordinate attacks as it invades Ukraine.

Durov’s arrest has also raised free speech concerns, with X CEO Elon Musk joining the calls to liberate the person many view as his Russian counterpart.

more at link

I am not a lawyer (and don't play one on TV), but to me refusal to cooperate with LE over legitimate criminal investigation into pedophile actors is not a free speech issue, rather an obstruction of justice issue.

^^^^ Eassy to say, when you believe whatever the government feeds you. Fact is, we seating here don't know squat what the truth is.

^^^ Exactly, nobody wants abuse of children but they need to come upon evidence honestly, not by coercion or other nefarious means.
Just look how NY conveutlted charge, used a corrupt biased judge to their advantage with Trump.
We have good reason not to trust what they say.