Good! Then I won’t have to fumble through trying to explain how tube wattage isn’t linear.

One of the most common uses of putting a drive in front of an amp is to take out low end. This is what a tubescreamer does; remove flub, and accentuate the mids.

My issue is that for overdrives it’s typically silicon (or Germanium) clipping verses toobz clipping.

They sound very different.

However they do a bunch of things as Smudge mentioned.

Hitting your amp a little harder on the front is often a good thing, getting the low cut in your guitar signal prior to hitting the amplifier is also an important utility (also done w/ pre EQ), and then the extra gain and compression/sustain is nice for leads.


Last comment… I like power amp distortion/saturation. The point made about your volume levels having to be painfully loud in order to get this pumping is a real issue.

This is where modelers absolutely shine. You can set the master volume where it needs to be in order to get the power amplifier working optimally. But you can turn it down without any loss of tone, dynamics or other sacrifice. Ymmv.

I really like hot pickups into a tight tube amp with mid heavy voicing and a graphic or parametric eq in the loop. That'll get me 99% of m sound withough much else. Mesa Boogie Mark series amps are great at that.
I have run a lot of different rigs from modelers, straight into tube amps, multi amp in stereo, wdw, and the whole high end pedal board tap dance. They were all fun to play through and build up but over the years I've settled on a good amp with a good multi fx unit.
I currently use a 50 watt tube head with a great od voicing with a Boss Gt100 multi fx/modeler floor unit. I have it wired in the 4 cable method where I plug my guitar into the fx, then run the fx's loop send into the amps input, amp loop send to fx loop return then the fx output back to my amps loop return.
This process allows me to have my tube amps preamp as a selectable voicing and the rest of my fx amp models to be ran in front of my tube amps powers section which provides all the digital amp models a real tube feel and reactivity.
I also can have the ability to place any of the fx before or after the preamp so I can put an od or compressor before and have all of my time based or modulations after.
Two other great benefits are a noise gate and volume pedal. Even into a 4x12 cabinet I can still turn down to TV volumes and it still sounds and feels really good. Great for a bedroom player like me.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Last comment… I like power amp distortion/saturation. The point made about your volume levels having to be painfully loud in order to get this pumping is a real issue.

This is where modelers absolutely shine. You can set the master volume where it needs to be in order to get the power amplifier working optimally. But you can turn it down without any loss of tone, dynamics or other sacrifice. Ymmv.

One piece of equipment that existed prior, but seems to have really taken off in popularity with many more builders in the last decade is attenuators, or load boxes. You can run the power out from your amp into one of these, then to your cabinet (or internal speaker of your combo), and it acts like a final master volume. In effect, you can run a tube amp as hard as you want in order to open up the power tubes and get saturation on the back end, but play at whisper quiet volumes all the way to up to full power without damaging the amp. Since I tend to play tube amps 60-100 watts I have had one of these on my “buy” list for years. Just never got around to it. You still won’t get all the flexibilty of a profiler/modeler amp, but you can run a stage volume capable amp at “the family is sleeping, but I can still play” levels.

r0gue, you get to a shop and try out any guitars yet?

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Last comment… I like power amp distortion/saturation. The point made about your volume levels having to be painfully loud in order to get this pumping is a real issue.

This is where modelers absolutely shine. You can set the master volume where it needs to be in order to get the power amplifier working optimally. But you can turn it down without any loss of tone, dynamics or other sacrifice. Ymmv.

One piece of equipment that existed prior, but seems to have really taken off in popularity with many more builders in the last decade is attenuators, or load boxes. You can run the power out from your amp into one of these, then to your cabinet (or internal speaker of your combo), and it acts like a final master volume. In effect, you can run a tube amp as hard as you want in order to open up the power tubes and get saturation on the back end, but play at whisper quiet volumes all the way to up to full power without damaging the amp. Since I tend to play tube amps 60-100 watts I have had one of these on my “buy” list for years. Just never got around to it. You still won’t get all the flexibilty of a profiler/modeler amp, but you can run a stage volume capable amp at “the family is sleeping, but I can still play” levels.

r0gue, you get to a shop and try out any guitars yet?

That's what the Weber Micro Mass does that I mentioned with the Fender Super Champ XD. The WMM goes n between the amp output and the speaker.

Getting a transparent power soak is not as simple as adding ohms somewhere into the output. There are numerous brands with their own versions.

The Weber does a good job in my 15W Super Champ XD. Higher wattage power soaks can get pricey.

The Fender Princeton Recording amp has the attenuator built in. Pricing is awfully high on those these days.

I had a Fryette Power Station I, but it's just so big and heavy, requires another power supply and, well, my $75 Marshall Power Brake from Offerup sounds just as good to me. I don't care about loops. I also have an SPL Reducer that's rated for 200w, but it gets too hot to touch with even a 100w Marshall. So it's getting sold.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Higher wattage power soaks can get pricey.

That's why I've never bought one. I'm looking at doing a gear flush/reset here pretty soon. It's about time to start reading up, because I think one of these will be critical for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
$75 Marshall Power Brake from Offerup sounds just as good to me.

Stole it!

A number of people have brought up modeling amps and attenuators.

I have some thoughts.

First, some background.

A modeling amp is a computer. It captures a digital representation of your analog guitar signal, then does a whole bunch of math on the digital audio to try to reproduce a digital version of what would have come out of a traditional amplifier if you had been using one. Then it converts it back to analog and outputs it.

Some modeling amps only model the electronics of a traditional amp and are intended for use with a traditional guitar speaker or cabinet. Some can also model the traditional guitar speaker/cabinet so the output can go directly to a PA system, recording console, headphones, hi-fi speakers, etc. Many can also model a variety of effect pedals and such.

Attenuators absorb some of the output of a traditional guitar amplifier and send only some of the output to the speaker/cab. Why do you need some fancy, expensive device and not just a big volume knob in a box? The output of a tube amp’s power tubes is load-matched to the speaker/cab through a transformer. Significantly changing the load, like by using a big rheostat, can damage the amplifier in a variety of potentially catastrophic ways (including destroying the output transformer and/or power tubes).

An attenuator presents a “speaker-like” load to the amplifier.

Now the actual comments.

1. Modeling amps aren’t perfect. I have used a Kemper for years and have played some through Ann Axe-FX. They sound pretty good but don’t sound exactly the same as a tube amp and don’t quite replicate the playing dynamics of a tube amp. This is probably not noticeable to anyone except picky guitarists, especially in a band or performance context.

2. Attenuators aren’t perfect either. They don’t perfectly replicate the load of a speaker/cab and will change the tone a bit. Again, probably irrelevant to anyone but picky guitarists.

3. In a traditional amplifier, some of the tone (I hesitate to say “distortion,” because that has a specific meaning in guitar circles, but that’s what it is) comes from the speaker itself from stuff like the speaker cone flexing, the speaker cone travel reaching its limit, etc.

So, for a traditional amp with an attenuator or a modeling amp with a traditional speaker/cab (rather than a modeled cab), even with a hypothetical perfect attenuator/modeler, when you reduce the output volume, the tone and dynamics will change somewhat because the distortion occurring in the speaker will be reduced. Again, picky guitarists.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: maladat,

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
r0gue, you get to a shop and try out any guitars yet?

Not yet. We don't have much of a shop in my town. So I'm looking at a drive to "the city". Possibly next weekend.

We guitarists are a picky bunch. We can hear differences in shades of paint on glass bottles.

quote:

Originally posted by r0gue:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
We call them effects pedals or stomp-boxes, but yes, that's what that is.

Here's two higher end options as examples:

https://www.sweetwater.com/sto...rent-overdrive-pedal

https://www.sweetwater.com/sto...tate-overdrive-pedal

If you're running an overdrive pedal, does it really matter what the amp is? Or is the combo amp then just a clean lift of the pre-signal for output to the speaker.

The amp still matters a lot. Remember that guitar amps are not neutral amplifiers of the signal the way a stereo amp is. Guitar amps color the signal one way or the other even before you push them into distortion, so the amp still matters a lot even if you use a pedal to either overdrive the amp or to color the signal before it gets to the amp (or both).

My brother plays more than me. He recently bought a swanky boutique amp from Carr with an attenuator in it, and he does really like it, as he can play it at house volume with power amp distortion. I think his is their Skylark (more Princeton and Deluxe), and it does sound good. (Carr's new Super Bee also sounds like it would be a cool choice. Fender sounds like a Super Reverb at 2 to 10 watts.) As noted, however, even an attenuator will do things to the sound that aren't quite like just turning the amp up to eleven. Those things can even be good, but they aren't quite the same as just playing louder.

Carr sure is a nice amp. Handwired iirc, no?

So, how’s that guitar hunt going? We’re all eager to live vicariously through your NGD!

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
We guitarists are a picky bunch. We can hear differences in shades of paint on glass bottles.

Lol, yup!

I've come to the position that 99%+ of listeners won't hear the difference between a cheap guitar and an expensive one. They won't hear the difference between a very high end tube amp and a decent digital emulation. Especially when played on stage. They don't hear the different types of strings, picks, pickups, or pedals.

I do have a decent collection of guitars these days, and find that each one inspires different types of songs. But that's for me and for my crazy music friends.

As far as having a large spectrum of emulations to choose from, I've moved away from that. Were I in a bar band trying to sound just like the original artists in a variety of songs, yeah choice is good. But for everything else I am now all about simplicity.

quote:

I've come to the position that 99%+ of listeners won't hear the difference between a cheap guitar and an expensive one.

Like Signified alluded to, this is one area in life where guys will act like women. Go to any Via, Satriani, Petrucci, Bonamassa or Emmanuel show, and it's 95% dudes. Those guys? They aren't playing to women, they're playing to other guitar players. It's totally a flex, and guys to to watch them flex. The only notable exception I can think of offhand is John Mayer. He's a phenomenal guitarist, and his blues stuff is perhaps some of the best I think I've ever heard. He'll pack a crowd pretty evenly mixed - the women go for the sex appeal, the guys go for that ridiculous guitar tone and clean playing. At least his blues trio days, I haven't kept up since he started wearing a cowboy hat.

Everyone else who slings a guitar to people who don't play? The audience not only couldn't tell the difference, they couldn't care less, either.

I agree that the audience can't hear a difference but the responsiveness of tubes and compression off a 4x12 cabinet puts me in a zone so I play with more feeling and emotion.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Carr sure is a nice amp. Handwired iirc, no?

And wired point to point - real old school. The cabs and coverings are very well done.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
We guitarists are a picky bunch. We can hear differences in shades of paint on glass bottles.

I'm going to restate that in a slightly different way.

"We guitarists are a picky bunch. We think we can hear differences in shades of paint on glass bottles. Depends on what common misconception is being touted on the gear page dot net."

You'll hear a lot of baloney being stated as gospel truth. Let's get a few things clear, the Marshall Origin series does NOT sound like a plexi. A Variac doesn't really do much to an amp's tone. A delay with a P2399 may be "analog voiced" but it is, in fact, a digital pedal.

I've got a million of them.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
... What you want is to buy a Klon Clone off Mark123 if he's still building pedals. ...

I'm redesigning the PCB this winter (at least I plan to). I'm probably going to do a dual pedal with a Klon and a Rat in one enclosure. I'll keep you posted.

https://imgur.com/a/RTPH0EQ
I certainly love mine……

quote:

Originally posted by sybo:
https://imgur.com/a/RTPH0EQ
I certainly love mine……

Hey how do you like that J. Suhr tele?

Thoughts?