quote:

How are you going to use your electric stove when the power is out? Generator? How many households actually have a generator, and how many have sufficient fuel for said generator?

Since we won't be using gas/propane to power the stove any longer, you can hook up a generator to the old gas line and run a generator to power the electric stove.

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Originally posted by bryan11:
It is interesting how the official rules are to throw away everything in your fridge if the power goes out for several hours and never touch any food past the expiration date. Is all that based on safety or to get people to buy more stuff?

Well, I have ten years of working in kitchens and had to throw out more food than probably any normal person would do in several lifetimes, so I might be more qualified to answer this than some. There's what's called the "danger zone" for food temps. Read the short version of the FDA guidelines on that here.

Now, the truth is, what a restaurant will not serve a customer is often eaten by the staff without a second thought. Food pulled from the line for being outside the time window at whatever holding temp is supposed to go in the trash, but if it's at least been cooked, it's considered fair game. I've seen dishwashers and other back-of-house workers eat stuff you wouldn't even want to know about, and they didn't even reheat it, they just ate it at room temp.

That said, there was a Greek guy named Tasso who opened a restaurant in El Paso in the 90's, and my family went there often. Really nice guy, and the food was great. The he got shut down for nearly killing some people by keeping cooked potatoes out at room temperature for multiple days and serving them. 30 people got botulism and four were put on ventilators. It was the largest outbreak of botulism in this country since 1978. We had eaten there the day before they shut him down. I'm glad none of us had the dip. We didn't eat there again after he reopened a week or two later.

So, it depends. It's not just meat and dairy, some things can turn fast and be super dangerous. As soon as bacteria start growing, they start shitting toxins in the food. If you serve it to someone and they die, it's a serious problem for you. However, some people with stout systems might microwave something for a minute or two and maybe just get gas off it. Or it could kill you. It really depends, but if you're legally liable in any way, you're going to discourage people from trying to find out. If you're hungry enough, anything is fair game. History has numerous examples of starving people eating tree bark, grass, and shoe leather once they got desperate enough, so meat that hasn't been refrigerated for a few hours is nothing compared to that.

^^^ really good point re: toxins

It is important to know that botulism kills primarily through the toxins. You can kill off all the bugs/bacteria but you’re not gonna destroy the toxins with standard baking temperatures.

If you want to break down the toxins, you have to go into a furnace/incinerator.

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Originally posted by parabellum:
How many households actually have a generator, and how many have sufficient fuel for said generator?

I still have my fathers generator I got for him in year 2000. Think it might still me good???

You aren’t getting botulism from refrigerated and frozen food thrown in a dumpster.

quote:

How are you going to use your electric stove when the power is out? Generator? How many households actually have a generator, and how many have sufficient fuel for said generator?

I'll use either my propane grill or most likely, my Sun Oven to conserve fuel for other things.

https://www.sunoven.com/

I think with the lack of electricity in Arizona… Cooking your food would be near the last thing you’d worry about.

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Originally posted by trapper189:
You aren’t getting botulism from refrigerated and frozen food thrown in a dumpster.

No, you're not. I think my example was pretty clear on that. Depending on how well packaged the food was, what it was, environmental factors and the like, you're weighing risks no matter what. Frozen food laden with preservatives thrown in a dumpster in Houston before it even had a chance to fully thaw at about sixty degrees ambient temperature? Probably fine. Refrigerated shrimp in the summertime? I wouldn't take that bet.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
^^^ really good point re: toxins

It is important to know that botulism kills primarily through the toxins. You can kill off all the bugs/bacteria but you’re not gonna destroy the toxins with standard baking temperatures.

If you want to break down the toxins, you have to go into a furnace/incinerator.

Or you could just boil the food with the toxins that cause botulism. The bacteria itself will not cause the disease, nor will the heat resistant spores. The bacteria are killed with normal cooking methods, the spores require 240 degrees Fahrenheit or better, the toxin breaks down at 185 degrees Fahrenheit or better. I didn’t know this either. I’m filing it under the you learn something new everyday category.

“Though spores of C. botulinum are heat-resistant, the toxin produced by bacteria growing out of the spores under anaerobic conditions is destroyed by boiling (for example, at internal temperature greater than 85 °C for 5 minutes or longer). Therefore, ready-to-eat foods in low oxygen-packaging are more frequently involved in cases of foodborne botulism.”

Link

“The toxin is heat-labile though and can be destroyed at > 185°F after five minutes or longer, or at > 176°F for 10 minutes or longer.”

Link

I said you won’t get botulism from the particular case at hand, because the conditions where the spores form and start producing the toxin were not met.

Shellfish toxins are a good example that can’t be cooked to be destroyed.

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Originally posted by trapper189:

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Originally posted by downtownv:
Bring on the toilet paper!

Not that shit again. The good news is: I am well stocked up and ready to go.

Me, too! I was on my last roll and ordered a bunch in. I think Kaopectate and anti-diarrheals might be more useful.

flashguy