quote:

s I said in my post above, the real key to success, unless you're going to be a self-made entrepreneur, is who you know and who knows you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well I guess I am a self made entrepeneur. Who you know has some benefit but pales compared to your skill and abilities. The drive to work very hard and take risks is extremely important. I knew no one when I moved to this area. Being intelligent helps as well as investing wisely.
Who you know matters in sales. School did not prepare me for running a business.

Acquire skills, and you will get to know the people you need to, for the most part.

There is a section of the economy, which seems very incompetent, and mostly runs on the "frat boy" model.

I admit, I don't understand that area.

I can’t help wondering if part of it is the declining value of a college education. Years ago, in college we learned (or honed) critical thinking, writing, collaborating with others (and probably lots of other stuff that isn’t coming to mind right now) as well as whatever we learned in our major. Now it seems like many learn entitlement, wokeness, and a lot of other BS that does absolutely nothing to make one a better employee. When you add in the astounding cost of college or university these days, it doesn’t look like much a bargain to any sane person who gives it a minute’s thought unless their career direction is engineering, medicine, law, or some other field that actually requires what is learned along with the degree.

Going to college (or university) just because “everyone else is” when one has no idea what they want to do may not be nearly as good an idea as it used to be…

If who you know and who knows you overrides competency or education, then that really discredits education even further.

Why have college? Just have open networking events.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
If who you know and who knows you overrides competency or education, then that really discredits education even further.

Why have college? Just have open networking events.

Who you know doesn't override competency, but it can and does override education.

When a guy is hiring, he doesn't know if the applicant is competent or not, but OTOH, he knows a guy who is competent and who might be looking to make a move, so he talks to and hires him. Nobody in his straight head will hire an incompetent simply because he knows him.

And education? The last guy I fired had a bachelor's degree from Duke University and a Master's from Stanford. The guy was totally incompetent and all he really knew how to do was take tests and get good grades.

I have a 2 year technical degree in electronics, that and a bunch of CE classes over the years. My plan on graduating (in 1978) was to go to work for a couple of years to get some "real-world" experience and then go back to school for a BSEE. Never happened. I found that I liked having a good income, and going back to school and living on PB&Js for another 3 or 4 years had zero appeal. So I stayed on the bench. Over a few years the company I worked for started making programmable instrumentation, and I had the opportunity (not because of my education, but because I was already there) to get into the software side of things. I discovered that I liked that better than the other, and started to steer my career in that direction. There were a couple of layoffs along the way, but over the next 10 years or so I gradually became a competent software engineer. I don't have the BSCS that nearly all of my teammates did, but I learned what I needed to know on the job. IMO you can't really do that anymore, UNLESS you know someone. Two jobs back, at the end of the dot com bust in 2001, I got laid off for the 3rd time. I'd been working for a company that did mostly turnkey software solutions for whoever would pay them to do it. One of the last projects I worked on there was for a non-for-profit company that does online testing systems for K-12 schools. Yeah, THOSE tests. I and two other guys wrote the desktop application that kids all across the country used to take tests. When they heard I'd been laid off, they offered me a job immediately. I wound up doing another 21 years there before finally retiring a few weeks ago.

So yes, WHO you know - and what they know about you - can be a huge help career-wise. The trick is getting that first foot in the door, getting to the point where they know you and like you. For that, a degree is still usually required, at least in the engineering fields. Having the degree doesn't necessarily mean that you know anything, but it will get you past the box-checking HR gatekeepers so that you at least have a shot at getting an interview.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
The last guy I fired had a bachelor's degree from Duke University and a Master's from Stanford. The guy was totally incompetent and all he really knew how to do was take tests and get good grades.

I have believed for a bit of time that those schools don't teach material different from that a regular state school. What those schools do is open your network to some exclusive clubs that only open doors for said clubs.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
The last guy I fired had a bachelor's degree from Duke University and a Master's from Stanford. SNIP.

I have believed for a bit of time that those schools don't teach material different from that a regular state school. What those schools do is open your network to some exclusive clubs that only open doors for said clubs.

I don't think that private schools teach the material that differently than most state school programs, but they often utilize significantly lower student-to-teacher ratios, have more professors teaching in class in place of graduate students (used in many lower level courses in some programs), and more research-oriented assignments that can go beyond standard assignments. The lower student-to-professor ratio can really help with being able to get extra assistance outside the classroom and make concepts come together much better than pouring over notes and textbooks. Having taken advantage of such opportunities, that was my experience.

That said, I'm not sure if the very significant additional cost of such education is worth it for most students not planning on pursuing advanced degrees (and probably not for many who plan to pursue such degrees). In fact, many concepts taught in research-oriented programs aren't needed by your average student not planning to pursue such a degree (example: engineering bachelor degrees versus engineering technology bachelor degrees) and many starting positions that require college degrees are doing so to be sure that applicants are generally several years older and hopefully a little more mature than typical new high school grads.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:
The last guy I fired had a bachelor's degree from Duke University and a Master's from Stanford. The guy was totally incompetent and all he really knew how to do was take tests and get good grades.

I have believed for a bit of time that those schools don't teach material different from that a regular state school. What those schools do is open your network to some exclusive clubs that only open doors for said clubs.

When I was young, I spent a month at Yale sleeping on the couch at a siblings dorm room. I was practically astounded at the attitude of 90% of the students, they really thought they were "the best the US had to offer". They may have done well academically, but they were definitely no smarter than most of the blue collar workers I have known.

Once at my old yacht repair shop, we had a customer who was head of neurosurgery at UC San Francisco. He remarked that what he did was no harder than what we did as mechanics and electricians.

Now I am working in the health care field, and I can see that he was correct. A good mechanic/electrician is as smart and capable as any MD I have met, and often smarter.

I've worked with a few people that were educated beyond their intelligence .

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
I've worked with a few people that were educated beyond their intelligence .

My Father referred to them as educated idiots.

quote:

Originally posted by selogic:
I've worked with a few people that were educated beyond their intelligence .

Can't teach common sense or experience in a classroom.