quote:

Originally posted by Sigfest:
Agreed^^^^^^
We don't want medical to decide who they'll treat.

I agree with this aspect of the issue as well.

The point I was attempting to present, relates to the community decision regarding what resources to use where.

The equivalent response team might be represented by the fire truck which gets to the fire and needs 3 hoses but only has one. Essential equipment burned up/inoperable due to previous fires and is yet to be replaced.

Living in a small community this has been reported a number of times. Someone somewhere had to deal with a budget and make a call on how to best equip those front line responders.

Rural ambulance services at times has been severely stretched. Yes surrounding communities can and do offer support. At times Life Flight saves the day.

I don't know how large the Narcan need is in my area, nor how large the funding pressures may be. At times over the years even the 9-1-1 hot line has been understaffed due to budget.

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:
The real problem is our policies are denying Darwin his just rewards and by doing so we're watering down the gene pool.

I sure hope none of your children become addicted to drugs like the physicians son did in the above article.




Fred A. Renfro
• Mar 24, 2017 at 3:38 PM

KINGSPORT - Fred A. Renfro, 46, of Kingsport, died unexpectedly at his home on Wednesday, March 22, 2017. Born in Kingsport, he was a 1988 graduate of Sullivan South High School. Fred was also a graduate of the University of Tennessee and The Texas Heart Institute. He had worked as a perfusionist at Johnson City Medical Center, The University of Virginia and Cookeville Medical Center. He also worked as a traveling perfusionist. Fred was a member of Colonial Heights Presbyterian Church. He was an avid hunter, fisherman, loved the lake and playing soccer.

He is survived by his parents, Dr. C.A. “Pete” Renfro and wife, B

Is this the same Fredrick Renfro that was arrested Feb. 26, 2016 for DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE?

Frederick Renfro
Sullivan County Arrest
Arrest Date: 02/26/2016
Agency: Sullivan County Sheriff's Office
State: Tennessee
County: Sullivan County
Record Date: Feb. 26, 2016, 4:53 p.m. UTC
Tracking number: 6841552

Great kid and all I am sure, but let's be realistic.
The photo is most likely Fred at his best.
Let's see the photo of him strung out on drugs, maybe a good photo of one of him from one of his overdoses.

"Renfro, a 46-year-old former cardiovascular perfusionist, who operated heart machines during surgeries, died of an overdose of a lethal combination of the powerful painkiller fentanyl and U-47700, a synthetic opioid drug."
The article indicates, this is likely the time when Fred became addicted. Would you want an addict in the operating room while you were having surgery?

"The overdose was the third in four months."
Not a one time event, he put Police and First Responders at risk multiple times.

"Perrin, the deputy district attorney and chief narcotics prosecutor in Sullivan County, said officers were already familiar with Renfro due to a previous overdose call."

"Renfro injected the fentanyl and U-47700, Perrin said, and syringes were found at the scene."

"Gwyn added that the drugs can kill anyone who comes in contact with them."

"The receipt Dr. Renfro found revealed his son had purchased 5 ounces of the drugs for $200. Frazier said an ounce of crystal methamphetamine can be purchased on the street locally for $1,000."
What was the source of income to pay for his addictions?

"You see law enforcement accidentally overdosing on this stuff because they brush up on it,” said Frazier, referring to reports of police officers encountering fentanyl during investigations and overdosing.

In May, an East Liverpool, Ohio, police officer brushed fentanyl powder off his uniform during a traffic stop and overdosed, according to the Washington Post. Nearby paramedics likely saved the officer’s life, the police chief told the newspaper."

"Renfro, a University of Tennessee graduate and former Johnson City Medical Center employee, had been addicted to drugs for many years, his father said.

“I think probably about that time [when he worked at the JCMC], he may have gotten into drugs for a little bit,” Dr. Renfro said. “It just kept going after that. It got worse, and he did some traveling profusionist work for a year or two.”
He continued to work on patients, while his addiction worsened, and his father, a Doctor knew it. Why did his father not take action to protect patients?

"For the last several years, Renfro, who liked to hunt and fish, did not work."
Again, what was his source of income? Not working how was he being beneficial to society. Was he taking more than contributing?

“The first time, I came out and found him on the floor, and another person was in the room on the floor,” Dr. Renfro recalled. “He was unresponsive, and I called 911.”
Two addicts enabling each other found on the floor. What became of the other person the Doctor found on the floor?

In my reading of the story Fred proved to be willing to put others at risk on multiple occasions.
Fred was not likely to have beneficially contributed to society as a whole had he survived.

A three strike rule seems to be more than generous.

^^^

So freakin' what?

What's your point? That if a first responder shows up and happens to know all of this about him, he should just say, "oh, this guy; naw, it's cool, bro. Just let this one die."

Get out of here.

Point one, false advertising.
The boy in the picture does not accurately reflect the 46 year olds appearance when he overdosed.

Point two, when an individual has repeatedly put first responders at risk to accidental overdose, the first responders should not be obligated to render aid.

Point three, there should be no expectation for others to financially support you unwillingly.
Be it through aid for medical care (taxation), or theft, which is a common means for addicts to obtain money for their habit.

We all die at some point, someone who overdoses has chosen that route as acceptable.
Recreational drug overdosage, is a self correcting problem, what is the benefit in delaying the inevitable?

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

So freakin' what?

What's your point? That if a first responder shows up and happens to know all of this about him, he should just say, "oh, this guy; naw, it's cool, bro. Just let this one die."

Get out of here.

Certainly not but there needs to be some sort of consequence when these remedies are used on them.
All of those have been removed in many states. They will never be expected to pay for the services rendered and some states have removed the criminal aspect.
Here in Ky if someone calls for help when someone overdoses they are no longer able to be charged with the drug related offenses.

Almost every person I have talked to after myself or the medics have brought them back says they will be doing it again.
I carry 2mg nasal doses they do pretty much nothing anymor. The medics carry 4mg nasal doses that sometimes work after the 4th or 5th spray so really 16-20mg. But the vast majority of the time anymore only the IV version works.

There has to be some sort of consequence currently there is none and they know this.

Neither an ocean of Narcan nor letting them all die will solve this problem.

Our culture needs to change and that will take no less than two generations.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

So freakin' what?

What's your point? That if a first responder shows up and happens to know all of this about him, he should just say, "oh, this guy; naw, it's cool, bro. Just let this one die."

Get out of here.

Certainly not but there needs to be some sort of consequence when these remedies are used on them.
All of those have been removed in many states. They will never be expected to pay for the services rendered and some states have removed the criminal aspect.
Here in Ky if someone calls for help when someone overdoses they are no longer able to be charged with the drug related offenses.

Almost every person I have talked to after myself or the medics have brought them back says they will be doing it again.
I carry 2mg nasal doses they do pretty much nothing anymor. The medics carry 4mg nasal doses that sometimes work after the 4th or 5th spray so really 16-20mg. But the vast majority of the time anymore only the IV version works.

There has to be some sort of consequence currently there is none and they know this.

I agree, but that would seem to be a completely separate conversation.

And frankly, I believe it should be irrelevant to the mission of the first responder.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Neither an ocean of Narcan nor letting them all die will solve this problem.

Our culture needs to change and that will take no less than two generations.

So, how do you change the culture? I ask this genuinely.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

So, how do you change the culture? I ask this genuinely.

Good question, and I suppose volumes could be written on it. I would start by returning to the values of 50, 100, 200 years ago, eschewing most, if not all, liberal values which have become ingrained in our society for the past 40-50 years (and kicked into overdrive for the past 10-20).

God, family, country, personal responsibility, discipline, moral and ethical behavior, etc....

No, not everyone from back then was a paragon of virtue, but as a culture we were far better than where we find ourselves now.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

So, how do you change the culture? I ask this genuinely.

Good question, and I suppose volumes could be written on it. I would start by returning to the values of 50, 100, 200 years ago, eschewing most, if not all, liberal values which have become ingrained in our society for the past 40-50 years (and kicked into overdrive for the past 10-20).

God, family, country, personal responsibility, discipline, moral and ethical behavior, etc....

No, not everyone from back then was a paragon of virtue, but as a culture we were far better than where we find ourselves now.

None of that is going to happen. If personal responsibility and virtue was a societal norm, we probably wouldn't be here in the shape we are in now.

(not a bit of that is directed at you, btw)

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

So freakin' what?

What's your point? That if a first responder shows up and happens to know all of this about him, he should just say, "oh, this guy; naw, it's cool, bro. Just let this one die."

Get out of here.

Certainly not but there needs to be some sort of consequence when these remedies are used on them.
All of those have been removed in many states. They will never be expected to pay for the services rendered and some states have removed the criminal aspect.
Here in Ky if someone calls for help when someone overdoses they are no longer able to be charged with the drug related offenses.

Almost every person I have talked to after myself or the medics have brought them back says they will be doing it again.
I carry 2mg nasal doses they do pretty much nothing anymor. The medics carry 4mg nasal doses that sometimes work after the 4th or 5th spray so really 16-20mg. But the vast majority of the time anymore only the IV version works.

There has to be some sort of consequence currently there is none and they know this.

I agree, but that would seem to be a completely separate conversation.

And frankly, I believe it should be irrelevant to the mission of the first responder.

So, what do you propose? If we are going to be honest with the problem, there is too much risk in the path we are headed down. The risk of infection of first responders is too great. The risk of exposure to whatever boutique drug they are taking is too great. When agencies and places tout "saves" they don't show, or talk about the number of responders that get exposed to the bodily fluids, or dope, of the "victim". You can wear all the protective equipment in the world, but it does no good when they wake up fighting. You can put on a hazmat suit, but then people will be crying that responders didn't get in "fast enough" to save poor little Johnny who can't quit.

No, getting exposed to God knows what so you can "save" someone for the seventh time from themselves isn't "part of the job". Nor am I in the wrong "mindset" for thinking that it isn't. Black isn't wrong. What we are doing just isn't working, and the taxpayers are throwing money down a hole saving little Johnny.

Want my support? Impose a $5,000 charge for each "save". If they can't pay, lock them up. I know, you'll get people crying about a debtor's prison. But, if they are in jail, you are "saving" them. And they aren't running around in public infecting first responders.

These threads do not produce real world answers in a time that answers are what we need. And the legislatures are doing it wrong. Want to OD? Cool. Catch bill, and then some. Make them pay. I'm really unsure why a bunch of conservatives are against free shit, but they have no issue throwing money at something like this. And I don't mean a little money. Many have stated in this thread that not treating them is inhumane. So, that means it is whatever it takes. And what it takes is a lot.

Want to save people 65 times? Cool. They pay for it. Heavily. Use the rest of the money to pay for the injury claims of those who are coming to "save" them. Stop bilking the taxpayers so we can feel good that we are "doing something".

Or, as I said before several pages ago, those who are sympathetic to Little Johnny who can't quit can pay for it. As much out of their checking accounts as they want. If "saving" someone 65 times makes them feel good, giving 20-30 percent of their own income should make them feel really good to know that they are "saving" them. But, as usual, they want to "save" them, but as usual, they want someone else to pay for it.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

We all die at some point, someone who overdoses has chosen that route as acceptable.
Recreational drug overdosage, is a self correcting problem, what is the benefit in delaying the inevitable?

Take 8:41 minutes to watch this interview kimber1911.This parent was a physician who tried his best to help his son who had mental health problems and was addicted to drugs. I hope your children never become mentally ill or addicted. You can not get them help under current laws even if you know they are going to eventually die,you can't even talk to the doctors because of HIPPA. This man had material resources,loved his son, and I am sure would have done anything to save him. The current system is broken. This father should have been able to have his son involuntarily committed and act in his best interest. Just watch the video and then tell us what you would do if it were your child.I really think you would have different perspective if it happened in your family. At least I would hope you would.

http://www.heraldcourier.com/n...5e-bdfffb6f0d9f.html

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

So freakin' what?

What's your point? That if a first responder shows up and happens to know all of this about him, he should just say, "oh, this guy; naw, it's cool, bro. Just let this one die."

Get out of here.

Certainly not but there needs to be some sort of consequence when these remedies are used on them.
All of those have been removed in many states. They will never be expected to pay for the services rendered and some states have removed the criminal aspect.
Here in Ky if someone calls for help when someone overdoses they are no longer able to be charged with the drug related offenses.

Almost every person I have talked to after myself or the medics have brought them back says they will be doing it again.
I carry 2mg nasal doses they do pretty much nothing anymor. The medics carry 4mg nasal doses that sometimes work after the 4th or 5th spray so really 16-20mg. But the vast majority of the time anymore only the IV version works.

There has to be some sort of consequence currently there is none and they know this.

I agree, but that would seem to be a completely separate conversation.

And frankly, I believe it should be irrelevant to the mission of the first responder.

While maybe a separate conversation it was is certainly brought to light by this one so they go hand in hand.

It would be pretty nice if one could separate it out from the mission of the first responder but considering that first responder will likely be on the scene of that persons next OD, or the scene where they have crashed their car and killed a child, the first responder as they are breaking in someone's home to steal what they can to get their fix, the one taking the report for the elderly grandparent who has had their bank accounts drained by the individual, the list goes on and on to the calls that first responders take care of thanks to these individuals. Considering it is part of the first responders mission to figure how to solve or at least lessen the problem they are there for it is likely that the first responders be an integral part of discussing possible routes to quell the problem. It will never be completely eliminated but it can be slowed.

Does anyone know the success rate getting someone addicted to opioids off of them? I don't know the answer but I bet the success rate is low for families that have been able to get loved ones into treatment. This leads to the question then, how long does society keep throwing money at this the way we are? I agree with jljones a few pages back: let those that want to continue to throw money at it do so. It's a sad reality for sure. But money and government isn't the solution to everything.

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

We all die at some point, someone who overdoses has chosen that route as acceptable.
Recreational drug overdosage, is a self correcting problem, what is the benefit in delaying the inevitable?

Take 8:41 minutes to watch this interview kimber1911.This parent was a physician who tried his best to help his son who had mental health problems and was addicted to drugs. I hope your children never become mentally ill or addicted. You can not get them help under current laws even if you know they are going to eventually die,you can't even talk to the doctors because of HIPPA. This man had material resources,loved his son, and I am sure would have done anything to save him. The current system is broken. This father should have been able to have his son involuntarily committed and act in his best interest. Just watch the video and then tell us what you would do if it were your child.I really think you would have different perspective if it happened in your family. At least I would hope you would.

http://www.heraldcourier.com/n...5e-bdfffb6f0d9f.html

The funny part of this, is the gun control crowd use the exact same thing. "What if this was your child that was gunned down by gun violence". I answer their question the same way I answer yours. "While it is a tragedy, it is part of being free". We seem to want to be free, up until it is a topic that pulls on our heartstrings. And then we are super-cool with giving up freedoms for a little protection. It just has to be in folks "best interest".

And we want everyone else to pay for it to boot.

While the physician's story was certainly tragic, it doesn't make me want to throw money or freedom at the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kimber1911:

We all die at some point, someone who overdoses has chosen that route as acceptable.
Recreational drug overdosage, is a self correcting problem, what is the benefit in delaying the inevitable?

Take 8:41 minutes to watch this interview kimber1911.This parent was a physician who tried his best to help his son who had mental health problems and was addicted to drugs. I hope your children never become mentally ill or addicted. You can not get them help under current laws even if you know they are going to eventually die,you can't even talk to the doctors because of HIPPA. This man had material resources,loved his son, and I am sure would have done anything to save him. The current system is broken. This father should have been able to have his son involuntarily committed and act in his best interest. Just watch the video and then tell us what you would do if it were your child.I really think you would have different perspective if it happened in your family. At least I would hope you would.

http://www.heraldcourier.com/n...5e-bdfffb6f0d9f.html

The funny part of this, is the gun control crowd use the exact same thing. "What if this was your child that was gunned down by gun violence". I answer their question the same way I answer yours. "While it is a tragedy, it is part of being free". We seem to want to be free, up until it is a topic that pulls on our heartstrings. And then we are super-cool with giving up freedoms for a little protection. It just has to be in folks "best interest".

And we want everyone else to pay for it to boot.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Being a police officer jj you should know how broken the mental health treatment laws are. How many times have you got a mental health detention order on someone who you clearly see as threat,transport them to a facility and see them on the streets the next week.How many times do we see where a mentally ill person murders people and it is revealed the family sought help but nothing was done.

This is not a gun control issue but it is does have to deal with some of the same laws that prevent people from being in treatment,but instead are walking the streets.You know better.

Now if you had Narcan on you and saw your son overdosing for the fourth time. Would you say fuck you, you made your bed,lie in it, and let him die?

If you would be willing to to that then let us know.

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kimber1911:

We all die at some point, someone who overdoses has chosen that route as acceptable.
Recreational drug overdosage, is a self correcting problem, what is the benefit in delaying the inevitable?

Take 8:41 minutes to watch this interview kimber1911.This parent was a physician who tried his best to help his son who had mental health problems and was addicted to drugs. I hope your children never become mentally ill or addicted. You can not get them help under current laws even if you know they are going to eventually die,you can't even talk to the doctors because of HIPPA. This man had material resources,loved his son, and I am sure would have done anything to save him. The current system is broken. This father should have been able to have his son involuntarily committed and act in his best interest. Just watch the video and then tell us what you would do if it were your child.I really think you would have different perspective if it happened in your family. At least I would hope you would.

http://www.heraldcourier.com/n...5e-bdfffb6f0d9f.html

The funny part of this, is the gun control crowd use the exact same thing. "What if this was your child that was gunned down by gun violence". I answer their question the same way I answer yours. "While it is a tragedy, it is part of being free". We seem to want to be free, up until it is a topic that pulls on our heartstrings. And then we are super-cool with giving up freedoms for a little protection. It just has to be in folks "best interest".

And we want everyone else to pay for it to boot.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Being a police officer jj you should know how broken the mental health treatment laws are. How many times have you got a mental health detention order on someone who you clearly see as threat,transport them to a facility and see them on the streets the next week.How many times do we see where a mentally ill person murders people and it is revealed the family sought help but nothing was done.

This is not a gun control issue but it is does have to deal with some of the same laws that prevent people from being in treatment,but instead are walking the streets.You know better.

Now if you had Narcan on you and saw your son overdosing for the fourth time. Would you say fuck you, you made your bed,lie in it, and let him die?

If you would be willing to to that then let us know.

You may try to say that it is different, pull on the heartstring with the whole "if it was your son" stuff, or you can recognize either we live free or not.

Despite how hard you may try, you can't do both. Choose wisely. If you decide to give your freedom away so someone else can decide what's best for you, just sign your freedom over and leave everyone else alone.

As I stated above, I'll give you (again) the same answers I do the gun grabbers when they use the "what if it were your child" BS. I always tell them (and you) "while a tragedy, it is part of living in a free society". I will not sell out my children (and everyone else's) even if it "saves one life". Sorry, no sale. We are either free, or we are not. I keep answering the question, but I guess I'm not falling into the "if it saves one life" trap?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JlJONES
I have a nephew who is addicted and he is going to die, If you read the above posts you will see what happened. If you have read it already I don't know what to say.

If you have not read it, I wish you would,it is not an easy thing to go through when it is happening in your family. I hope it never happens to you,and you might have a different perspective if it does.

if you want to truly change the culture, it needs to start with a reset of the expectations

we all know that drugs are bad, and if we accept that as our philosophy then we should also accept that there is perhaps no such thing as an accidental overdose

who plans to OD?

so just don't go to ANY of them

none, zip, nada

don't respond and put yourself at risk for an OD - doesn't matter who it is

it won't take long for the problem to start to die off, and everyone will know there isn't going to be a response

the money can be spent elsewhere on people that aren't trying to kill themselves in slow motion

once the users are gone, the suppliers will go elsewhere

as a society we're too soft on bad behavior - we will spend billions of dollars on a futile effort - and that's not very smart

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JlJONES
I have a nephew who is addicted and he is going to die, If you read the above posts you will see what happened. If you have read it already I don't know what to say.

If you have not read it, I wish you would,it is not an easy thing to go through when it is happening in your family. I hope it never happens to you,and you might have a different perspective if it does.

And I am truly as sorry as I could be. A loss is always a tragedy. I am sincere in that. However, my opinion does not, and will not change. We are free. And sadly, as in your case, freedom has to have consequences. I am not comparing you to the anti-gunners. But, the emotion is exactly the same. A mother I know of lost a child in a drive by. As she was lobbying for tougher gun laws, I shared the same sentiment with her. She told me that she hoped my child was never gunned down. I told her the exact same thing I told you. She was not happy with my answer. Called me a monster. And if it had been my child, my opinion would not change. Freedom has consequences.