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semi-reformed sailor |
Today(11-3-19) I flew from RDU to DAL on Southwest and was on a 737-700. The flight started at 1145 and we landed around 1445 hours. I know we were at 36,000 feet of altitude because the pilot came over the PA and told us we had reached our altitude after turning west from RDU. While we were over the Mississippi River, headed west, I was looking out the right side of the plane I saw another similar sized commercial aircraft about a half a mile to our north and it was eastbound... My question is this, is it normal for planes to be on the same altitude headed in different directions? Meaning, wouldn’t it be safer to have east flights at 35k and west bound flights at 30k, or some other directional separator? "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | ||
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Certified Plane Pusher |
My money is on not being the same altitude. More than likely you were 1,000ft vertically apart. Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you. | |||
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Member |
East bound will be at odd altitudes plus 500' if VFR and west bound will at even altitudes plus 500' if VFR. When IFR the altitudes are in 1,000' increments. Therefore the aircraft you saw was at least 1.000' separation and at 36,000' was in positive control airspace meaning the aircraft were monitored by radar. ****************************************************W5SCM "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution" - Abraham Lincoln "I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go" - Abraham Lincoln | |||
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| Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
If it looked that close (1/2 mile lateral separation) then it was definitely not at the same altitude as your aircraft. In the enroute stratum, planes have to be separated 1000 ft vertically, or five miles laterally. Once they get closer to their destination (and transition to the terminal environment), the separation minimums decrease. __________________________ "just look at the flowers..." | |||
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| Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated  |
I did en route ATC for a long time. You should have been separated by at least 1000 feet, which at those speeds and altitudes doesn’t look like much. They won’t even let us use any kind of visual separation above 18,000 feet because it’s hard to distinguish going that fast. I now fly a Citation and can see first hand why some of the rules are the way they are. All airspace above 18,000 feet (class A airspace) is under positive control by an en route center or, some of the lower altitudes by a TRACON, terminal radar approach control..... "Someday I hope to be half the man my bird-dog thinks I am." looking forward to 4 years of TRUMP! | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
What all of the previous posters said. Expanding on what bushpilot said, that is all correct below 18,000'. If above 18,000, as you were, disregard bushpilot's "plus 500' if VFR" because there is no VFR above 18,000'. The highest VFR altitude is 17,500' (I occasionally cruised there when I owned my oxygen-equipped C-210, before I bought the v-tail). הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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Member |
As the others have posted and I remember - East is Odd, West is Even. | |||
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| Member |
Somewhere back about 15 years ago most separation went from 2000’ to 1000’ at the flight levels. What you see out the back can be somewhat deceiving. I’ve had the F/A call & pass on that a passenger thought that plane was kinda close, no harm, no foul. We can constantly see & monitor(TCAS) all traffic squawking within about 35 miles of the aircraft, above, below, wherever. If one was to become a potential threat, we get cockpit indications & warnings. Enroute, 1000’ is usually plenty. A few times, depending on winds, setup, flight tracks etc.., one may want to adjust towards an offset. One that comes to mind is operating in close proximity to an A380 ‘Super’. | |||
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| As Extraordinary as Everyone Else  |
If I may let me add another question regarding flight paths... I have recently had the opportunity to fly on a few private jets and the altitude (and speed) these jets were flying at were considerably higher 40-45k feet and 550+ mph) Are commercial planes run at one range of altitudes and private jets at another? ------------------ Eddie Our Founding Fathers were men who understood that the right thing is not necessarily the written thing. -kkina | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
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| אַרְיֵה |
Each type of airplane has a maximum certified altitude, determined when the airplane type is first certified. The dispatcher or pilot requests an altitude when filing a flight plan. There are many factors that contribute to the choice of requested altitude, including things like winds and temperatures aloft, is the goal to achieve best speed, or minimum fuel consumption, etc. The gross weight of the airplane, including people, fuel, and "stuff" might limit the altitude. Because of conflicting traffic and other factors, Air Traffic Control is not always able to assign the requested altitude. As far as regulatory stuff goes, there is no difference between airlines and general aviation jets for altitude assignments. ColoradoHunter (who is still alive, despite reports to the contrary -- I have actually had the pleasure of meeting him for lunch) is one of our most knowledgeable forum member for questions like this, as he has experienced both sides of this coin; he is a retired Air Traffic Controller, and is currently a pilot, flying a Citation Jet. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
No, but commercial planes are running a profile which to some extent helps makes money. Takeoff runs, climb rates, inflight speeds are all calculated to help make $ in addition to being flown safely. Private jets typically exist to get from point A to point B as fast as possible for well to do people and the person writing the checks typically doesn't care if it costs a bit more money in fuel. | |||
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Member |
BLO 18K VFR, "Odd people fly East" (Eastbound = Odd thousand +500) Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark. “If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016 | |||
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| As Extraordinary as Everyone Else |
Thank you Vtail and Rhino.. ------------------ Eddie Our Founding Fathers were men who understood that the right thing is not necessarily the written thing. -kkina | |||
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| Member |
While there are a few "airline jets" that are capable of flying above 41000 feet they are few and far between. It is a design/certification issue mainly. Firstly you have to maintain suitable cabin pressurization which becomes more difficult the higher you go. Then once you're at those higher altitudes you have to be able to come back down rapidly to a breathable altitude if you have a pressurization problem. Those issues are more readily solved with smaller corporate jets than large transports. Cost is obviously a factor as well as weight considerations. It is generally more fuel efficient to fly at higher altitudes which is why small jets routinely cruise above 41000 feet. Being above most of the weather is a nice bonus as well. Mongo only pawn in game of life... | |||
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| semi-reformed sailor |
Thanks everyone for the answers.. 1k is not much of a separation for me, gheeshh a lot could go wrong at 800mph closing speed... WRT the distance laterally separation, I know it was less than a mile , Mrs Mike saw it too and I commented how close it was...we could see the other planes windows. It was disturbing to me, but now knowing that they were also under us, I guess it wasn’t that close a call. Again thanks guys! "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| Member |
As answered above, no. Those private jets have higher service ceilings (max operating altitude) than most transport category passenger jets. The service ceiling for the B757 is 42,000 and the B767 is 43,100 feet. B727 was 42,000, B737 either 37,000 or 41,000 depending on the model, not sure about Airbus jets but they are probably similar. Sometimes the weight of the jet or winds at a higher altitude make it more efficient to fly at a lower altitude, and you can be too heavy to even get to the service ceiling in the first place. The business and private jets that can get higher love to cruise up there to get favorable routing (direct) and winds to get better fuel burns and higher true airspeeds. Above FL410 (41,000 feet) one pilot is supposed to be using oxygen. That is one reason why you will seldom see a commercial pax or cargo pilot ask for an altitude above FL410, we don't want to have to wear the O2 mask. Also, the coffin corner of a large transport category jet can get pretty tight at 39,000 - 42,000 feet, meaning that your low speed stall and high speed buffet speeds are pretty close together. You have to be very careful of turbulence or mountain wave activity when you are up that high, especially in a turn. Every thousand feet higher exposes you to more radiation as well so many pilots prefer to not go to the absolute highest FL every time unless there is a need to get above some weather or if fuel is really tight and you need to climb for better fuel burn. Might not sound like a big deal, but over the years of flying all of that radiation really adds up. | |||
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| Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
SWA will occasionally file for FL400 but that is the highest I have seen commercial carriers file for. Typically, most file for FL300 to FL390. Here in the Northeast corridor, altitudes will be significantly lower, depending on the length of the trip. IAD to LGA? You aint gonna get above 250. It is just too congested. And to poke fun at coloradohunter44, I'll say this: Window Lickers are superior to Center Weenies  __________________________ "just look at the flowers..." | |||
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I'm Fine |
Have there been any studies showing higher cancer rates among pilots or other flight staff ? ------------------ SBrooks | |||
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| Member |
Some studies have shown pilots are 25 times more likely to get skin cancer. Risks are greater the longer you fly as a career. There are links to higher rates of breast cancer for FAs, but there isn't a proven correlation that I know of in either case. I have had other pilots use sunscreen in the cockpit and many go to great lengths to keep the sun blocked when at altitude but I'm not sure either will help with the solar radiation. | |||
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