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| Muzzle flash aficionado  |
I have heard of folks spreading it on their lawns just before a rain. The nitrates are beneficial. (Not recommended if you're a smoker . . . .) flashguy Texan by choice, not accident of birth | |||
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| Member |
Have you considered using an empty powder bottle? Just put on your own label. I'm sure you can source one from a board member if you ask in the other forum. -TVz | |||
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| Banned for showing his ass |
Excellent point ! I thought about that but do not have any of my own that are empty. I will ask in the reloader forum . | |||
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| Non-Miscreant |
This thread is upsetting. Its the first thread here that seems to be populated by the uninformed. First, Powder these days is sold in plastic jugs. Or at least the stuff I buy is. But then I buy in 8# jugs because its cheaper that way. Long ago, Handloader magazine started. And there was an article about one of the gun biggies testifying before congress. He testified that smokeless powder won't go off unless confined. As he was exiting the room, a few DuPont guys were waiting for him. They said he needs to tone down what he said. Their suggestion for him was to get some of the high nitro double base powders like Unique of Bullseye. Then take it to an open field and pour a pile of it out and put a blasting cap in the pile and set it off from a fair distance. It will detonate. If I had cap, I'd try it with the worldly remains of my open jug of Bullseye, just for fun. But these were the guys who made the powder, so they oughta know. I still have no clue what caused the house to blow up. So many folks lie these days, either on purpose or from ignorance. And we just let it go, again from ignorance or whatever. Unhappy ammo seeker | |||
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| Member |
You commented that no reloaders have commented. I reload. I have not put blasting caps in my powder to see if the higher rate of compression and heat will cause a different form of combustion, but smokeless powders which are not confined, double base or not, don't explode. I have ignited a pile of blue dot, for example, and it doesn't explode. It burns. Powders such as Unique and Bullseye have been around a long time and have been immensely popular for handgun loads, especially in .45 acp and other cartridges. Exploding containers of Bullseye or Unique is just not a thing. I have numerous 4 and 8 lb jugs of a variety of powders, and a lot of 1 lb jogs together in my reloading area. I have thousands of primers packaged in that area, as well as loaded ammunition, and components, and perhaps a hundred thousand brass nearby. There is nothing in that room which is going to result in blowing up the room, knocking down walls, etc. Worst case, careless handling and a dedicated ignition source might result in a fire. Factory plastic containers for most of the ammunition are not enough containment to result in an explosion, even were a spark to occur in an opened container. A rapid expansion and burn, but that's going to cause a fire, not blow out walls. There just won't be that much overpressure. It would take a lot more containment to reach that point. Six lbs of smokeless powder, regardless of its handling, regardless of whether it's double base or not, would not result in an explosion to do the damage seen in those images, without a dedicated explosive device. I could believe detonation of a significant quantity of tannerite, or an explosion of a purpose built explosive device, explosive material or compounds left in a clan lab, even an improbable combustible atmosphere (were the structure not occupied), but not reloading equipment gone wrong. A fire from improper handling, with burns, perhaps. A tray of primers with a chain reaction, damaged finger, eye damage, or even a tube of primers shot into the ceiling, maybe. Blowing out the walls. No. Not even with unique or Bullseye (or Blue Dot). There's a big difference between the compression and ignition provided by a detonator such as a blasting cap, and a simple spark or static discharge, and I doubt that even a blasting cap would have caused that result. Where is the fire? | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up  |
This is not aimed at who I quoted or anyone in particular. First, I was EOD in the early 90's, a long time ago and things do change but I've probably used more explosives and blown more things up than most here. I'm sure there are current EOD guys here and I know one member that worked with explosives in college if I recall, but most here get their info from movies or read/saw/dreamt it up somewhere. The normal way of igniting a low explosive is to use a high explosive, IE a blasting cap in smokeless powder. I realize you stated to place it on a pile and not confined, but I could do that with a lot of stuff, including any low explosive I can think of, and get it to detonate. The way those cinder blocks were in the pics, there is no way 6 pounds of smokeless powder did that. If he was building bombs with smokeless powder or cooking meth or the media is totally wrong in their "facts" then that changes things. Maybe current EOD or other military specialties with explosives training can correct me after looking at the pics in the article, but If you've never blown up more than a firecracker, you probably don't know what you're talking about. It the same reason why I don't argue with the lawyers here on legal manners - I have no legal training and no nothing about the law other than what I've heard or seen second hand. | |||
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Spread the Disease |
My MS is in explosives, as well as my career. I handle them on a daily basis at my main job and have my own side company where I teach training courses in initiation, sensitivity, improvised explosives, and other areas. I've trained hundreds of active duty EOD and LE bomb techs. I completely agree on the amount of Holiday Inn Express level BS in this field. There are tons of 'experts' out there based on anecdotal crap. Still, they do make for fun drinking stories or arguments on forums.  ________________________________________ -- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. -- | |||
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| Banned for showing his ass |
Have there been any updates on what happened ? | |||
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| Member |
i'd love to know also -- as with a lot of stories like this -- a bit comes out then there is a TON of rampant speculation and arguing then it kinda falls off the radar. -------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Member |
like those bomb techs from LA a couple months ago?? holy sheesh. what a disaster. credibility factor : ZERO. (them -- not you) --------------------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Member |
For the record, I am an active Bomb technician (for about 6 more weeks anyway) and have a BS degree in chemical engineering (earned before going into law enforcement) and an MS in explosives engineering which I earned while working at my current employer. While I wouldn’t say that there are a lot of bomb technicians with advanced degrees in explosives like flesheatingvirus and I, there are quite a few that have taken a number of advanced college classes to hone their craft. There are also some techs I’ve met over the years that don’t even have college degrees but have become bonafide experts on explosives and explosive effects. They might not be able to determine an equation of state, but they would absolutely have meaningful input that would be helpful in an investigation such as this. There are also some techs that do the 6 week course and recent every 3 years (the minimum requirement) and that’s it. Just like in any job there are folks that are great at what they do and others that aren’t so great, but I think that calling into question the credibility of all bomb techs because of the mistakes of a few is painting with too broad of a brush. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
why would you think i was calling into credibility ALL bomb techs (broad brush) when I specifically mention the LA bomb techs that basically blew up a neighborhood (which I would guess you are taught NOT to do at bomb school) ? as a taxpayer is it wrong these days to ask for common competence from well-paid civil servants, especially 'experts' ? (sorry for the thread drift) ------------------------------ Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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I Deal In Lead |
I was wondering how he came to that conclusion myself. | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up |
You were the one I was thinking of. I didn't know lt. Cheg was one too, my hats off to you guys. | |||
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| Member |
I appreciate the expert observation by qualified participants. Two have come forward to say that they are qualified, and everyone else is full of shit. Experience is thus established. No comment on the thread, however, is provided by those experts. Perhaps the two qualified participants would offer something on the subject more educational, then, than "we're the experts." For those of us that do have a substantial amount of primer, powder, and equipment stored, that input would be most valuable. | |||
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Member |
I'll skip quoting your post in case you want to edit it. If you actually read the thread, the posters you are exercising your sarcasm on already offered their opinions earlier in the thread. | |||
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| Member |
As I look back at your post now, I realize I totally misread your post. When I read it the first time it played across in my head as if you were saying that "bomb techs couldn't be trusted as experts, just look at the bomb techs that blew up a neighborhood in LA - they're all idiots". As I look at your post now, I see it the way that I believe that you intended it. I very humbly apologize and ask for your forgiveness. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
I think that flesheatingvirus and I are in agreement in our opinion that the damage shown in the pictures was most likely not caused by just smokeless powder. Black powder is more likely, but in my opinion, I don't think black powder caused that damage either. My spitball opinion is that flash powder, like what might be used in "M80s" or some type of Home Made Explosive (HME) would be much more likely to have been involved in the explosion. Even if an HME detonated in close proximity to a double based smokeless powder causing a sympathetic detonation of the smokeless powder, that might be more consistent with the damage shown in the pictures. I really wouldn't want to speculate much beyond saying that I believe that something more than smokeless powder caused the damage in the pictures. As far as advise for those that store lots of powder, etc. I would just say to store the items in accordance with manufacturers recommendations. Keep the containers free from moisture and air. Store your stuff away from other fuels and oxidizers, and always keep fuels separated from oxidizers. If containers begin to degrade then dispose of the containers and their contents. I don't think there is that much more that can be said as far as advise. Smokeless powder isn't exactly Plutonium, so it doesn't need that much special handling. Even double based powders are pretty stable and don't degrade much on their own as long as they are kept from moisture and large temperature swings. Triple based powder is a different story as it gets increasingly unstable with age, but you can't just go and buy triple base powder. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
Thank you. | |||
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| Spread the Disease |
CHEG, I agree with your statements, above. Now I'm starting to wonder if I've associated with you in a class or through some other venue. What institution did you get your MS through? I went to grad school at NMT. ________________________________________ -- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. -- | |||
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