quote:

I get the argument, but applied consistently, we should go back to Prohibition.

In 2016, 28% of all fatal crashes in the US involved alcohol, while 16% involved all other drugs, legal and illegal, combined.

Don't fret over the lower standing of drug users, once legalized the drug group will increase significantly, and pass the alcohol fatality percentage, drugs won't always be in second place....

The difference is the legality of the substance used. Interesting how legalizing drug use supporters always look to offset the claims against legalizing drug use with alcohol statistics as a crutch.

It's like saying that "my mind altering substance isn't as bad or any worse for society as your mind altering substance". It's as if those who have issues with legal drugs have no issues with the problems that alcohol causes in society.

The point being that legalized use of any mind altering substances will result in an increase in problematic social issues. We can't deny it, and the alcohol reference is no different that saying to your mom when you did something you shouldn't "well, Timmy did it to.."

The fact is human beings are involved, due to human nature, alcoholics exist as will drug use abusers, and in result, they will drive impaired just as drunks drive impaired. It is an always be the human factor.

When making the pro drug legalization argument every time it's avoided that since the substance is illegal it reduces to total overall market that participates, simply due to it's illegality. Seems that they always disregard the potential for significant problem increases as a whole due to increased use.

Once legalized a lot of people that might never try to use it because they don't like the idea having their colon walls pushed out by some other inmate or losing a job, family whatever might try since the illegality is gone.

So it can potentially double, triple, maybe quadruple the user base, which will bring about an significant increase in the related problems.

Every argument made on this is predicated on information gleaned from results of a total environment that is no where near the total size once legalized. Suggesting that the automotive fatality rate will remain constant in the face of a significant use increase is disingenuous.

The same applies if we were discussing legalizing alcohol over an existing market of legal drugs. The result of legalization is an increase in market size, increase in new users, and thus an increase in any resultant problems associated with the larger population of users.

I wasn't arguing for legalizing drugs, I was trying to draw attention to a logical inconsistency.

A lot of people think drugs should be illegal, for this and other reasons - but many of those reasons, including this one, also apply to alcohol, and in my experience, very few people think alcohol should be illegal.

You're basically saying "legal alcohol shouldn't mean legal drugs," which is fine, but what about the other direction? If they're good reasons for banning drugs, aren't they good reasons for banning alcohol?

I will note that I'm not actually advocating banning alcohol, either, I'm just discussing the nature of the arguments that are made. I enjoy alcohol in moderation and don't drive after drinking.

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
I wasn't arguing for legalizing drugs, I was trying to draw attention to a logical inconsistency.

A lot of people think drugs should be illegal, for this and other reasons - but many of those reasons, including this one, also apply to alcohol, and in my experience, very few people think alcohol should be illegal.

I just quoted you since your comment is quite similar to the many pro drug legalization arguments made which are the "well alcohol..." references.

Other than the two substances being mind altering substances, comparison of accident rates, hospitalization, theft/crime statistics really isn't a fair comparison.

Once the market is open for legalized drug use the amount of users is going to increase, and as such the problematic issues associated will increase.

That's the point I was making, not if we should or shouldn't legalize drugs.

Just saw an update. Looks to me he was Charged properly





Javier Caldera of Washington state was arrested at the scene on suspicion of several charges, including murder, DUI, driving without a proper license and gross vehicular manslaughter. As of Wednesday morning, he remained jailed on $1 million bail, records indicated.

link

He went right over the top taking the top half of the car, and probably a good share of the victim with him.

I do see one difference between alcohol and drugs: only some alcohol drinkers become addicted (alcoholics); AFAIK, all drug users become addicted.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
I do see one difference between alcohol and drugs: only some alcohol drinkers become addicted (alcoholics); AFAIK, all drug users become addicted.

flashguy

Nope, on many different levels. First define drugs (alcohol is a drug), second define "some". There a a shit load of drivers driving "buzzed".

That’s insane to see how little is left of the victim’s vehicle. That driver didn’t stand a chance.

So a thread discussing a man high on drugs murdering and innocent lady and injuring others, quickly changes to gun owners arguing that drugs should be legal.

If you have guns and do drugs, please do law abiding gun owners a favor and give either one or the other up.

ATF Form 4473
11.
(e) Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

Note that the Bold Print above is Bold on Form 4473.

Please do not trying and conflate drugs with guns.
It is an asinine argument.

I kind of assumed that Altima was a convertible until I read the name of the car...

It will be interesting to see if they release the speed of the truck at time of impact. I'm guessing 120+

What a shame for the lady...

Sadly, the whole legalize drugs thing is complicated. The libertarian in me asks, “Where in the Constitution it says that drugs are any of the government’s business?” The conservative in me says, “Almost nobody should be doing drugs whether they are legal or not. It just isn’t prudent.” The realist in me says, “Legalizing drugs will likely increase use.”

It is just messy any I certainly don’t have the answer.

quote:

If you have guns and do drugs, please do law abiding gun owners a favor and give either one or the other up.

Agreed. I don't even have a single beer while cleaning my gear after a range trip. It waits until after the safe has been locked up or the piece stored if I'm feeling inclined. Sorry to see these kinds of story's, this shitwipe should have still been in jail from the first go round when he ran from the police in Washington, let alone the rest of it. Dear lord. Here's his record going back to 2016. (possession of ammunition? wut) https://www.localcrimenews.com...-caldera-arrest.html

Conspiracy To Commit A Crime
Addict in Possession of Firearm
Possession Of Ammunition
Carrying Loaded Firearm - Previous Felony Conviction
Convicted felon in possession of or in ownership of any firearm.
Robbery

Saw a story the other day where a felon in possession got 5 years for shooting a person in public. They had cameras and everything, the case was a slam dunk, but the DA plead it down to being obnoxious or something instead of attempted murder. This criminal should have still been locked up from the first felony. Anyone thing douchbag will be walking the straight and narrow when he gets out early in 2 years?