I should have been more specific...I was told the life of your average builder grade HVAC used by mass manufacturers is 8-12 years. I was told nicer units can and do last significantly longer


I was also told this area is brutal on HVAC systems because you can literally go from ac to heat and back to ac in a 12 hour period for several months a year


This weekend is a perfect example

When I got home st midnight on Friday it was 70 degrees outside

When I left Saturday morning at 8 it was 31 with light snow

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:


The life of the average HVAC system is 8-12 years.

Damn, I sure hope not. I was thinking I wouldn't have to worry about my new system for 15-20 years?

My HVAC guy told me my 20 year old system was at the end of its life and should be replaced rather than repaired. In fact he said we were kind of lucky it lasted that long. Replacing it saved me 20% (or more when it was really hot) on electricity bills, as the newer units were so much more efficient.

Our house was built in 1993 and have the original Bryant furnace and Carrier AC. I had the Carrier AC put in an the the time it was the best unit they made.

The AC went out about 6 years ago and I had a guy from Chicago are based Four Seasons heating and cooling came out and what a joke as he was a salesman dressed as a tech. He told me I needed new furnace and AC and a service package including yearly paid visits to maintain warranty. I asked what was wrong with the AC and he said he was not sure but it was in bad shape and not worth repairing. Guy was a fucking liar as I took the top off the Carrier and found a bulging can capacitor. I found replacement at Grainger for $22 and it has been working ever since.

I will probably be looking to replace heat/AC fairly soon but in no big hurry. I have had the money set aside for replacement invested with a Vanguard fund for a while now more than compensating for higher energy bills due to older units lower efficiency. When I do replace it I will another Carrier with a high quality unit but mid range efficiency to keep cost down on replacement unit and for less complexity/repair costs.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
I should have been more specific...I was told the life of your average builder grade HVAC used by mass manufacturers is 8-12 years. I was told nicer units can and do last significantly longer


I was also told this area is brutal on HVAC systems because you can literally go from ac to heat and back to ac in a 12 hour period for several months a year


This weekend is a perfect example

When I got home st midnight on Friday it was 70 degrees outside

When I left Saturday morning at 8 it was 31 with light snow

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:


The life of the average HVAC system is 8-12 years.

Damn, I sure hope not. I was thinking I wouldn't have to worry about my new system for 15-20 years?

I had an experienced HVAC guy with a great reputation install ours in 2002. It was a multi stage high SEER unit by York. The compressor failed in 3.5 years, but fortunately, the guy sold us a 10 year extended warranty at cost for $650, so they came out and replaced the compressor. It failed about 1.5 years later so they came out again, but this time brought the York rep out who checked the sizing of the unit and everything else before installing the new compressor. Then it failed again within a year. This time, they offered to replace the entire outside unit with a builder grade Goodman unit the explanation being that my specific unit had proven to be problematic in the field over time. So, goodbye multistage high SEER unit. The goodman has been chugging along for 10 years now.

Not really sure what any of this means except to say the expensive York was apparently crap and the cheapo Goodman works well. All anecdotal, go figure. I get the sense that there's a race to the bottom in HVAC units like what I see in most large appliances. I feel like they get all their parts from the same Chinese suppliers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jigray3,

Our Rheem unit was installed in 1978 when the house was built. Only had a couple small issues with it, one was a condenser fan motor, it still working fine. It is a bit noisy though, it is a roof pack, so it is kinda annoying sitting out on the patio in the summer.

Funny story, we had an issue with it one day last summer and the AC service company sent out two twenty something guys. They had no clue on how to work on it and had to wait for the owner of the AC service company to come out. He was probably in his late fifties and had it up and running in no time.

I have two Trane units on my home . They are replacements for other Trane units that lasted over 20 yrs . Louisiana can be hell on an A/C system . 10 - 12 yrs is a good run .

I think the biggest factor is how long do you expect to be in the house? Could you move in 5 years? Definitely don't replace it then if it is working fine. An upgrade will eventually pay for itself in efficiency if you stay there long enough.

My HVAC guy is really honest, has fixed our 16yo system 2x now for minimal cost. 1st time I forget what it was (I wasn't home when he fixed it), Last summer the AC went down, I trouble-shot it and replaced 2x fuses. This year the motor failed. He replaced it for under $300. We had the repair/replace discussion, since I told him I planned on keeping the home as a rental when we move (hopefully w/in 5 years) he said he wouldn't replace it or upgrade. He also said you just can't tell motor life either, sometimes they go 20 years, sometimes 3...

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
I have direct knowledge of this because

I just spent $12,000 to replace my lower zone HVAC TODAY

Things I learned in this process

The life of the average HVAC system is 8-12 years. The quality of the brand generally determines if it is 8 or 12.

You're right as far as new builds are concerned. I just don't know where the cut-off year is where manufacturers severely restricted the life of systems.

"8-12 years"
"Manufacturer's restricting life expectancies"
"I was told"

Do you guys believe everything you read on the internet too?
You have been led around the block by a blind salesman.

Just because one buys 10 lowers/rifles doesn't make that person an expert on ARs.

We replaced two 16 year old units last year. I told the guy I'd pay more for a unit that would last the rest of my lifetime. He laughed and said nobody makes one. Wound up with Carrier 16 seer units. Installation looks superior to the builder units in all regards.

I was advised that 10-15 years is about all you can expect. The newer high efficiency units use thinner materials and consequently don't last like the ones made 30 years ago. On the other hand, they don't cost as much to run.

If these new units last 12ish years and they cost $12K to install, give or take, they cost essentially $1000/year.

Damn, I'm in the wrong business.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

You're right as far as new builds are concerned. I just don't know where the cut-off year is where manufacturers severely restricted the life of systems.

"8-12 years"
"Manufacturer's restricting life expectancies"
"I was told"

Do you guys believe everything you read on the internet too?
You have been led around the block by a blind salesman.

Just because one buys 10 lowers/rifles doesn't make that person an expert on ARs.

I read that on the internet??? How about if I personally experienced it, doesn't that count?

Washing Machine: I had a landlord in San Francisco that was still using a washer that were on legs. It was at least 25 years old. My first washing machine didn't last 10 years without rusting and needing repairs.

Refrigerator: My parent's refrigerator was still running after 35 years keeping things cool without a breakdown, the latest refrigerator I bought had problems inside of 5 years.

I bought a house and lived there for 7 years, previous owners lived there 5 years, never had anything go wrong with the air conditioner. I moved to a new build in the same city to a house with two ac units. under 10 years, one of the units needed repairs, next year the other unit went out for the same problem - bad capacitor.

What's driving my belief about shorter lives of manufactured products is my personal observation. Articles on the net like Lifespan Of Major Appliances Not What It Used To Be only confirms for me what I already believe.

You don't think companies consider how long their products are expected to last as part of their design??? That's crazy because it means that if engineers design products to last beyond their expected lifetimes, that means there's more cost being built into the product that no one is willing to pay for.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

I read that on the internet??? How about if I personally experienced it, doesn't that count?

Washing Machine: I had a landlord in San Francisco that was still using a washer that were on legs. It was at least 25 years old. My first washing machine didn't last 10 years without rusting and needing repairs.

Refrigerator: My parent's refrigerator was still running after 35 years keeping things cool without a breakdown, the latest refrigerator I bought had problems inside of 5 years.

I bought a house and lived there for 7 years, previous owners lived there 5 years, never had anything go wrong with the air conditioner. I moved to a new build in the same city to a house with two ac units. under 10 years, one of the units needed repairs, next year the other unit went out for the same problem - bad capacitor.

What's driving my belief about shorter lives of manufactured products is my personal observation. Articles on the net like Lifespan Of Major Appliances Not What It Used To Be only confirms for me what I already believe.

You don't think companies consider how long their products are expected to last as part of their design??? That's crazy because it means that if engineers design products to last beyond their expected lifetimes, that means there's more cost being built into the product that no one is willing to pay for.

First, we're discussing HVAC equipment and not general 'plug-n-play' appliances like washers and refrigerators.

The comment about "reading it not the internet", is in reference that you can not believe everything a service guy tells you either.

What people fail to understand is major appliances (since you brought them into the discussion) are plug and play. You simply set them into place and plug them into an electrical outlet.

HVAC equipment is not plug and play. It is dependant on many things being correct in order to not limit its lifespan.
Some of those items are:
Having properly sized equipment.
Insuring the duct system will support the systems needs, in order to allow for proper airflow.
Having a properly size air filter, in order to allow for proper airflow.
Setting the fuel pressure, temperature rise, proper drainage, electrical, etc.
Having a proper venting system.
Having a properly sized copper line set.
Using proper brazing procedures when connecting a line set.
Performing a proper evacuation and charging of the air conditioner or HP.

The manufacturing doesn't stop at the factory, it continues on site all the way up to the final adjustments.
Many of these steps are either not done or are short cut by installers.

THAT is the leading cause of equipment failures, always has been and will continue to be the leading cause of equipment failures. Until, you get people to take pride in their craftsmenship, this will continue to be a leading problem within many professions.

Older (talking 40 years ago) equipment was more robust, built like tanks which could endure much more torture by improper installation technics.
Newer, more efficient equipment isn't as forgiving and relies on things being done correctly so its operating within manufacturer's specifications.

I've said it before, forget the brand name on the equipment and put the installers name on the front, as they are the end manufacture. They are the ones in which your equipment life is dependant on. Their skills and integrity are the real things one should be concerned with when purchasing new HVAC equipment.

I guess we must be running on borrowed time as our home was built in 1985 and we still have the original furnace and AC.

Hence our furnace and AC are 33 years old.

In my area (close to the beach) the old HVAC systems were a lot more robust than the new style. The condenser coils used to be copper coil with copper fins and the copper was both thicker walled than the new aluminum coils and fins and also a lot more resistant to corrosion from the salt air than the current aluminum coils.

All of the manufacturers went to the aluminum coils/aluminum fins on the condenser coils because it transfers temperature to the atmospheric air (heat in a/c mode, and cold in heat mode on heat pumps) a lot better than the copper did, resulting in a much higher seer rating (more efficient).

10 miles and further inland it most likely doesn't make a hill of beans on whether or not the condenser coils are aluminum or copper (for longevity). But there are many units close to the beach.

All of my HVAC units are within 1/2 mile from the beach that I own or manage except for 1, so it makes a big difference. On a 4 plex I own, the 1983 trane 2 ton went 27 years until the copper condenser coils developed a large leak on a weld and I replaced the unit. The RHeem 2002 2 ton unit on another unit at the same building went 11 years and the aluminum condenser fins and coils completely disintegrated.

Copper coils with aluminum fins was even worse as you got galvanic corrosion between the 2 dissimilar metals as well.

On the other side of the coin, the amount of money I save on electricity with the new units, literally saves more than it costs to replace then every 11-12 years. I've saved right around $100 a month in electric on those 2 ton units in a 1100 sq foot unit each and every month since they were replaced.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jimmy123x,

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
Life span, 18-20 Yrs.

Age of equipment, post make, model and serial numbers.

Everything is junk, until its properly sized, installed and set-up to operate with-in the manufacturer's specifications.
Quality of the installer is more important than the name plate on the equipment.

The scare of 22 being illegal after next year is a myth.
Basically the production stops in 2020 (for new equipment) and 2030 (for service), but can be used to service existing equipment, until the supply dries up.
There's also many replacement refrigerants which can be used with existing 22 equipment.
In other words, the sky isn't falling.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...aGg6jNZw_hRBK7hsHRRH

It’s a General Electric. The model is a bit hard to read on the old imprinted tag but I think it says:

Bwv730a100d1
And I think the serial is: w43476957

I’m also 80% certain there is a manufacturer date stamped on the tag of 10/83. What’s the efficiency of this thing, assuming a bunch of the fins weren’t mashed together like they are.

GE... wholly crap... yes, that is original to the house.

83 would be correct.
7 SEER
2 1/2 ton unit

That is the original 'climatuff' compressor, which Trane built their reputation on when they bought GE.

Very inefficient (in todays standards), but will run fooooreverrrrr. Google 'Trane snowball' for some interesting reading.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

7 SEER
2 1/2 ton unit

So would it be safe to assume that it should be replaced by another 2 1/2 ton unit (though I think we need to do a dual zone at least)?

What is a good efficiency to buy into now? Something that is a good initial cost to efficiency ratio.... our cooling bill in the summer is upwards of $400 if I say “screw it” and just stay comfortable.

However, we RARELY go upstairs, so that is why I think we would benefit from a dual zone system.

I replaced my unit about three years ago, will pay for itself before the warranty ends on it.

Borrowed $5,000 @ .9% interest. $146 per month payment. Covered new furnace, HWH, and AC. I'm saving on average $100 per month, so my net payment is $45 per month. At 4.5 years I will be in the black on the transaction.

My HVAC buddy told me not to waste money on high seer unit since my old one was so inefficient I'd still save money. I had no clue how much money, wow. I did also add about $500 in insulation to the attic. If I factor that in too BEP is at five years.

Glad I replaced a unit that was still working paid for itself and the upper floor is much more comfortable now.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
So would it be safe to assume that it should be replaced by another 2 1/2 ton unit (though I think we need to do a dual zone at least)?

What is a good efficiency to buy into now? Something that is a good initial cost to efficiency ratio.... our cooling bill in the summer is upwards of $400 if I say “screw it” and just stay comfortable.

However, we RARELY go upstairs, so that is why I think we would benefit from a dual zone system.

House built in 84, with the original system. Now, 34 yrs later... I'd want a load calculation (manual J) to verify sizing.

Zoning will depend on the ducting system. It may or may not be feasible to accomplish without major modifications.

Here's the minimum requirements for CA.
14 SEER, 12.2 EER and 8.2 HSPF as of Jan. 1 2015

Going to 14 SEER would cut your bills in half. Possibly more, if the unit isn't operating at peak performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

House built in 84, with the original system. Now, 34 yrs later... I'd want a load calculation (manual J) to verify sizing.

Zoning will depend on the ducting system. It may or may not be feasible to accomplish without major modifications.

Here's the minimum requirements for CA.
14 SEER, 12.2 EER and 8.2 HSPF as of Jan. 1 2015

Going to 14 SEER would cut your bills in half. Possibly more, if the unit isn't operating at peak performance.

How does one do a load calculation? Will a reputable company do that when they come do a quote?

I was thinking about zoning and I doubt it’s possinle without reworking the ducting. It seems to firm a loop around the house between the floors.

The one thing I’d want to explore though is the air return. The main return is on the floor level of the entry way. Directly above that is a higher return, probably about 10-11 feet up, also in the entry way. This elevated ceiling entryway is NOT really connected to the actual upstairs living area and there is no way for ANY hot air in the upstairs area for returning to the air handler to be cooled. I suspect this is why the upstairs never ever cools.