It was my first time flying at night. Plan was to head out to the practice area working on instrument training. Then we were going to come back to the airport and do some landings before calling it a night. This is an uncontrolled airport.

We got off the ground and out to the practice area and did some turns and what not. While we were out there a commercial passenger aircraft landed and blew a tire on one of the outer gear and would need help getting off the runway.

So we decided to divert to another airport and practice landings for a bit while they got that mess cleared up.

We spend about an hour doing landings before we headed back. When we got back in the area it was 9 or 9:15. My instructor attempted to raise the airport manager on the radio to see if the runway we wanted to use was clear. Crickets. We couldn't see anything on the runway. No flashing lights, nothing. So we figured they got it all cleared up and had gone home.

As a last check, my instructor got the local Flight Services on the line and asked if there was a NOTAM for runway 21. There was still a NOTAM active for another hour or so.

For this reason we used what is the main runway, but had a pretty strong crosswind.

I got it on the ground and taxied back to the hangar. About the time we shut down I see a truck with flashing lights going out to runway 21. The plane was still on the runway.

So here is a question for the pilots.

Say you take off for a cross country. You've gotten your weather briefing and check the NOTAMs. You get to your destination and its dark. The runway looks like you'd expect it to look. You land and make contact with a plane that was left on the runway. Turns out a NOTAM was put in place for that runway after you got your briefing.

What happens next?

To answer your question directly, probably nothing happens next. From your story I gather nobody complained. That said, I’d self report to the FAA using ASAP: https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap

It’s a great system that you can use without fear of reprisal (unless alcohol was involved).

In your particular situation it sounds like you guys did what you were supposed to. I probably would have checked with Center or approach.

I learned to fly at night. I think 15 of my first 20 hours were at night.

And out of Dulles International Airport to boot!

I'm not sure if I understand your experience, or your question. Did you end up landing on a runway that was occupied with another aircraft?

Is your question about arriving at a field at the end of a cross country, and landing on a runway that's occupied by a disabled aircraft?

If you check your notices prior to departure and something occurs after that time (while you're enroute), you may not be aware of what's popped up during that time. You can check NOTAMs enroute. When you arrive at the destination, if it's a controlled field, or the airport is aware that the runway is disabled, a lighted X should be placed across the runway (or a painted X in the daylight, marking it as closed. A tower should advise you.

If it's an uncontrolled field, and an unattended one without voice communications, you may have no one available to get an advisory, and you may not have any NOTAM to check for a runway closure...there may not be a runway closure.

When landing at an uncontrolled field, day or night, it's up to you to determine that the runway is safe, and it's also up to you to be prepared to go-around. I've encountered joggers, vehicles, aircraft, animals, and all kinds of other things on runways at night; deer, a bull, skunks, work equipment such as a backhoe, plant and tree debris, etc. It happens. Sometimes it pays to make a pass down the runway to look, with your lights on, climb back to the pattern, and return to land.

ASAP is for airlines, and it's a program that exists within an airline. It's not something you can use or access. You can access the ASRS, sometimes called the NASA report, where you can file a safety report of irregularities. Pilots sometimes file these if they think something they did or that happened, might become a matter of of FAA enforcement action...if you did nothing intentional, nothing illegal, and didn't use the system for your defense in the last seven years, then if the FAA does come after you, evidence that you filed a report within 10 days will mean that while you'll have a mark on your FAA record, you won't serve the penalty (if the FAA suspends your certificate, for example, for 90 days, that goes on your record, but you keep your pilot certifiate).

The ASRS program will not notify the FAA about an immediate safety hazard, however; the report is sanitized (your name and details removed), and it's put into a safety database.

Your question is a valid one: things can occur after you're done briefing and preparing, so you always went to be looking, listening, and checking.

A closed runway shouldn't be lighted. It should have an illuminated X. It should have a NOTAM, but may not always have any of that...especially an uncontrolled, unattended runway. Always be playing the "what if" game, asking what might happen or what might be a threat. Unfamliar runway, unattended, no information...what might be wrong? Plan accordingly.

There is an expression to the effect of, "Stick around in this business long enough and you'll see almost everything."

One get the impression that sns3guppy has been doing this for a while.

My first rule is to protect the seats, then if possible the airplane. If at all possible, it is best to do this while remaining within the rules. They were, after all, written to keep us safe. Don't forget FAR 91.3 though.

It seems crazy that there's no method of signaling an out of service runway that you would see from the air for an uncontrolled airport. Something simple like flashing glide slope lights or even the green/white beacon changing to something else sounds simple enough.

Here's my true story, and it happened at a tower controlled airport. In the late 1960s, I was based at Isla Grande Airport in San Juan, PR, just a few miles west of the Luis Munoz Marin International Airport.

Radio communications with the FAA Control Tower were in English, and it sometimes got interesting when the pilot's first language was Spanish.

An airplane had landed, tire was flat, tug was on the way with a dolly to place under the wheel with the flat so it could be towed to the maintenance shop.

An inbound Cessna announced that he was ten miles west.

SIG (Isla Grande Tower): "Be advised there is a disabled aircraft on the runway."

Cessna: "Royer."

A couple minute pass, inbound calls five miles out, descending to 1,000', requesting straight-in.

SIG: "We have a disabled aircraft on the runway."

Cessna: "Royer."

Pilot announces a two mile final.

SIG: "Go around, disabled aircraft on the runway!"

Cessna: "Royer."

Cessna proceeds to land and go around the disabled aircraft on the runway.

quote:

Originally posted by DBabsJr:
It seems crazy that there's no method of signaling an out of service runway that you would see from the air for an uncontrolled airport. Something simple like flashing glide slope lights or even the green/white beacon changing to something else sounds simple enough.

At an attended airfield, there is: the closed runway has an X placed at each end of the runway, and a notice to airman is issued. The X is lighted for a runway that's lighted, and typically they're raised.

The problem occurs with an unattended airport.

If a runway has been formally closed, then it must be X'd. Not all airports or runways have regular maintenance or support.

I landed at Tuba City, AZ one night to pick up a patient, and encountered a tent on the taxiway. The runway at the far end has a turn-around that is a small taxiway, and someone simply pitched their tent on it in the dark. It was very difficult to see. The camper thought there wouldn't be much traffic, so he didn't see the issue.

At another runway on a reservation, it was common for hospital personnel to job on the runway; enough so that it was standard practice to make a low pass down the runway at night to get people off the runway, before coming back to land.

There is no standard for changing a rotating beacon (it's a global standard) or a VASI, PAPI, or other visual lighting system, other than to deactivate it...but that doesn't help in the daytime when the runway may be out of service, and won't help if no one is at the airfield to know anything is out of service. If a municipality or authority knows of a runway that's out of service, it's their responsibility mark it.

If an airport has multiple runways, changing a beacon color won't advise which runway is open or closed.

Never assume a runway is clear. Someone may be holding in position on the numbers. A helicopter may be hovering mid-field above the runway. I've seen both, with and without lights. Neither talking on the radio. Dont' assume others are making radio calls or that you see them on technology (TCAS, ADS equipment, etc). Look for the traffic and obstacles that you don't hear, that aren't talking, that aren't advertised or announced, and especially for those which ought not be there. Maybe on the ground, maybe in flight.

I've been over many fires, with big smoke columns and temporary flight restrictions, heavy fire traffic, which were violated by the hero-of-the-day who had to come visit in his Cessna to report the fire...and created a collision hazard. Neither NOTAMS or a large smoke column with a thundercloud on top, big enough to be seen from space, seemed to be enough to alert Mr. Private Pilot to what was going on. Doesn't need to be a runway...look for traffic and obstacles everywhere. Expect them.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:


ASAP is for airlines, and it's a program that exists within an airline. It's not something you can use or access. You can access the ASRS, sometimes called the NASA report, where you can file a safety report of irregularities. Pilots sometimes file these if they think something they did or that happened, might become a matter of of FAA enforcement action...if you did nothing intentional, nothing illegal, and didn't use the system for your defense in the last seven years, then if the FAA does come after you, evidence that you filed a report within 10 days will mean that while you'll have a mark on your FAA record, you won't serve the penalty (if the FAA suspends your certificate, for example, for 90 days, that goes on your record, but you keep your pilot certifiate).

I didn’t know that. We’ve had guys use it in my unit (USAF, not airlines) to self-report safety issues. I’m not a Safety guy, but from what they tell me there’s a way the USAF feathers into the program. Either way not something a private pilot can access, which I did not know. Thanks for the SA.

I have landed on runways taxiways and streets that had things on them, but always with permission and I’ve never been surprised to find the obstacle there. Would be disconcerting to land without NVGs and find the runway blocked!

quote:

Would be disconcerting to land without NVGs and find the runway blocked!

Are NVG's de rigeuer evening wear for night landings?

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:

quote:

Would be disconcerting to land without NVGs and find the runway blocked!

Are NVG's de rigeuer evening wear for night landings?

I’m not sure about everyone, but I’m usually on white phosphorus NVGs from engine start to shutdown. I’ll flip them up if it’s too bright.

Caveat— military only. It’s been 20 years since I flew civilian aircraft at night and I certainly didn’t have them.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:

Are NVG's de rigeuer evening wear for night landings?

Rare, I would say almost never for civilian use.

There is very little application of night vision in civil flying, but for most night flights, it's unnecessary.

It's a matter of learning to fly at night.

I’m not sure what if anything would happen from the FAA side of things. That may depend on what the eventual outcome became.

I realize you didn’t land at the out station, but you did know the runway was fouled as you left. With a disabled plane, commercial type, RJ, whatever, getting it clear may take a while.

One could do a full stop at the outstation, make phone calls, check ‘notices to air missions’(new terminology), then launch when assured open.

The other course would be to head back, fuel to divert, but be very suspect of equipment on the runway. Obviously, less info available at an uncontrolled field. Most flight apps have access to Notams while flying, Garmin Pilot, etc. I’d think the manager would be quick to Notamed closed, slower to show it open.

Obviously there may be other runway options.

When you get weather from the FSS or from ATC they will read you the NOTAMS. 99.999% of the time you already have them, and they are stupid lawyer cya things like an open ditch 10 ft off to the side of a taxiway. For a while in SLC they were NOTAMing the location of a 6ft high pile of dirt during construction.

A low pass over a dark runway is a good idea. We used to do that at a couple of rural airports after dark due to frequent deer. That was in airline operations.

The FAA will decide, in the opinion of the FSDO investigating the accident, if the pilot did everything to have current weather and NOTAMs. For the airlines it means 1 hr for weather. But even that would probably involve lawyers if people got hurt. My airline had pilots fighting certificate actions when nobody got hurt and upon inspection no damage to the aircraft was found.

I always coached the new guys that the un-sterile conversation while taxiing for takeoff, which is on the cvr, would be blamed for the engine failing after takeoff.

If you were offered NOTAMs by a controller and declined because you "already have them", you might be screwed. There is a good chance a controller who wasn't too busy would still offer "it shows runway 21 closed" even if you declined NOTAMs.

Truly, enforcement depends on the mood of the inspector. If it gets referred to regional counsel (prosecutor), they do not care one bit about safety or reality, just nailing your hide to the wall.

Never forget that the FAA investigates for prosecution, the NTSB investigates for safety.