Green energy failure.

February 16, 2021, 06:30 PM

konata88

Dumb question: how does solar work on a large scale (ie - utility provider level)?

Let's say 30% of electricity provided by a utility is based on solar panels. What happens at night? During rainy season? Where does electricity come from during periods when solar panel output drops to 'pennies on the dollar' levels? Do 30% of customers get no electricity? Does this mean that we need to supply 100% of electricity (at least during those periods) via non-solar means? So, the in long term 'green' view, 100% solar during the day, 100% ??? during nights and rainy days?

February 16, 2021, 06:31 PM

Wolfpacker

quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:
Didn't Texas opt out of being on a regional grid and to have only their own grid?

https://www.star-telegram.com/...r%20all%20of%20Texas.

I live far away in NC but I believe that Texas is independent and stand alone. I had always speculated that it was based on oil/natural gas. However I guess not. Wind & solar for the most part??

February 16, 2021, 06:39 PM

houndawg

quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Not a green nut, but this isn’t a fair criticism. Multiple power sources are down in Texas because of weather, including nuclear (needs water to function and cool, said water is frozen), natural gas and coal (water needed as well), as well as wind.

Nukes up north manage just fine in the winter. Water doesn't freeze any different in the south

February 16, 2021, 06:55 PM

mutedblade

quote:
Originally posted by houndawg:
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Not a green nut, but this isn’t a fair criticism. Multiple power sources are down in Texas because of weather, including nuclear (needs water to function and cool, said water is frozen), natural gas and coal (water needed as well), as well as wind.

Nukes up north manage just fine in the winter. Water doesn't freeze any different in the south

Must be some mighty shallow water to have frozen, even if in the single digits for a week or more. While it's not common to see a week or more of single digits here around Lake Anna, I've never seen anything more than part of the upper end freeze and it has never affected North Anna Power Station.

February 16, 2021, 07:00 PM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfpacker:
quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:
Didn't Texas opt out of being on a regional grid and to have only their own grid?

https://www.star-telegram.com/...r%20all%20of%20Texas.

I live far away in NC but I believe that Texas is independent and stand alone. I had always speculated that it was based on oil/natural gas. However I guess not. Wind & solar for the most part??

Yes, they are on their own grid. Which means they are not part of a multi-state grid network and can not draw power from outside the state in times of emergency, like the rest of the country can.

February 16, 2021, 07:45 PM

midwest guy

Iowa generates 36% of electricity via wind turbines. Last I looked it gets pretty fucking cold in Iowa. There are three power grids in the U.S., the Western grid , the Eastern grid and ERCOT. Texas the energy capital of the world can’t even keep their lights on. A harsh judgment on deregulation of their power grid.

February 16, 2021, 08:04 PM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by midwest guy:
Iowa generates 36% of electricity via wind turbines. Last I looked it gets pretty fucking cold in Iowa. There are three power grids in the U.S., the Western grid , the Eastern grid and ERCOT. Texas the energy capital of the world can’t even keep their lights on. A harsh judgment on deregulation of their power grid.

To that point:

https://www.star-telegram.com/...rticle249285685.html

February 16, 2021, 10:34 PM

Nuclear

quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Dumb question: how does solar work on a large scale (ie - utility provider level)?

Let's say 30% of electricity provided by a utility is based on solar panels. What happens at night? During rainy season? Where does electricity come from during periods when solar panel output drops to 'pennies on the dollar' levels? Do 30% of customers get no electricity? Does this mean that we need to supply 100% of electricity (at least during those periods) via non-solar means? So, the in long term 'green' view, 100% solar during the day, 100% ??? during nights and rainy days?

You have hit it on the head. If you want to be able to supply 100% of your load when your solar, wind or unicorn farts stop working, for whatever reason, you have to build “excess” capacity in fossil & nuclear power plants.

Or you can institute rolling blackouts.

It’s the whole reason utilities have “excess” capacity, for when (not if) generating units go down.

February 16, 2021, 10:41 PM

YooperSigs

Related question for our solar power users:
Do your solar banks produce power when covered in snow? There is a big solar "farm" in the planning stages just south of MQT. This is a big snow area and I could see the panels being covered in a foot of snow in a typical Yoop winter.

February 16, 2021, 10:45 PM

1s1k

quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Related question for our solar power users:
Do your solar banks produce power when covered in snow? There is a big solar "farm" in the planning stages just south of MQT. This is a big snow area and I could see the panels being covered in a foot of snow in a typical Yoop winter.

February 16, 2021, 10:46 PM

reloader-1

quote:
Originally posted by houndawg:
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Not a green nut, but this isn’t a fair criticism. Multiple power sources are down in Texas because of weather, including nuclear (needs water to function and cool, said water is frozen), natural gas and coal (water needed as well), as well as wind.

Nukes up north manage just fine in the winter. Water doesn't freeze any different in the south

Same exact point as my wind related infrastructure one - the Texas power production infrastructure isn’t protected against brutal cold weather in a similar way to northern nuclear/gas/wind etc.

Nukes work in brutally cold climates, as does gas, coal, and wind; the key is that the actual hardware has to be designed for that.

Texas is not, hence why the grid is down. Hasn’t got much to do with green energy (which sucks, I agree), and more to do with infrastructure that isn’t designed to work in freezing conditions.

February 16, 2021, 10:53 PM

houndawg

quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
quote:
Originally posted by houndawg:
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Not a green nut, but this isn’t a fair criticism. Multiple power sources are down in Texas because of weather, including nuclear (needs water to function and cool, said water is frozen), natural gas and coal (water needed as well), as well as wind.

Nukes up north manage just fine in the winter. Water doesn't freeze any different in the south

Same exact point as my wind related infrastructure one - the Texas power production infrastructure isn’t protected against brutal cold weather in a similar way to northern nuclear/gas/wind etc.

Nukes work in brutally cold climates, as does gas, coal, and wind; the key is that the actual hardware has to be designed for that.

Texas is not, hence why the grid is down. Hasn’t got much to do with green energy (which sucks, I agree), and more to do with infrastructure that isn’t designed to work in freezing conditions.

Nuclear cooling ponds are nuclear cooling ponds. They aren't any different here than they are there.

February 16, 2021, 11:02 PM

reloader-1

I think you are being intentionally dense now.

Yes, nuclear cooling ponds are very similar everywhere. That’s not the only water used in a nuclear plant for electricity generation, as the Wall Street Journal reports:

quote:
For instance, around 5:30 a.m. Monday, one of the two units of the South Texas Project, a nuclear-power plant near the Gulf of Mexico, shut down, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials and the plant’s operator. The unit’s water supply froze, causing two pumps to fail. The pumps delivered water that is turned into steam and used to generate electricity.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/t...ge-probe-11613513090

As I mentioned above, this isn’t a nuclear plant issue, it’s a preparation issue for cold/freezing temps.

February 16, 2021, 11:32 PM

1s1k

At least the west Texas Mayor cares.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...tml%3foutputType=amp

February 16, 2021, 11:56 PM

tatortodd

Texas wanted cheap power and we got cheap, unreliable power. The late 90s failed deregulation and early 2000’s “successful” deregulation resulted in a weird hodgepodge of players.

power producers

transmission & distribution

“Retail” electric provider

The competition is on the retail end but they don’t necessarily own the generation or transmission & distribution. In fact, the main transmission & distribution company for Houston, Centerpoint, generates zero electricity (spun that off in 2002) and their retail rates are non competitive so there is a typically a middleman between their meter on the side of the homeowners house and the homeowner.

It’s still a monopoly for the transmission & distribution, and they have no incentive for upgrades. In my rapid growing area, they just extend from the old transmission & distribution to the new areas. When you drive thru home shopping you see zero power lines and get lulled into false sense of security of new, buried power lines. After a power outage or two, you realize the weak link is a few miles away and 20+ years old. The transmission & distribution get a lot of money through fees the regulators let them charge regardless of buying power from a generator or delivering to retail providers’ customers. Additionally, they do planned outages for tying in new customers but no communication to existing customers they’re losing power for hours (ie the final straw leading to purchase of whole house generator).

The other side of the County has an electric company that is both producer and has a transmission and distribution. They seemingly have no incentive to have interconnects to the other parts of the grid or other generators. That means that when they have generation problems their customers truly are shit out of luck. However, this week they parrot what ERCOT says about rolling blackouts from mandatory load shedding even though it’s just a blackout not a rolling blackout.

In my county, one company seems to think it’s OK not to communicate for a day day and a half to emergency managers and the other company thinks it’s OK to lie for a day and a half to emergency managers.

The frustrating part for me was I was living out of state the last time there was a major winter outage in Feb 2011. All kinds of recommendations made for improvements and all kinds of political grand standing but seemingly very little implemented (ie it reads much like the list of 9/11 commission recommendations not made many, many years later). Call me a pessimist but I’m envisioning the same thing happening in the aftermath of this.

February 16, 2021, 11:59 PM

Balzé Halzé

quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:
For instance, around 5:30 a.m. Monday, one of the two units of the South Texas Project, a nuclear-power plant near the Gulf of Mexico, shut down, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials and the plant’s operator. The unit’s water supply froze, causing two pumps to fail. The pumps delivered water that is turned into steam and used to generate electricity.

This paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. Are they talking about the cooling water supply pumps or the steam condensate pumps? I have a hard time believing that the condensate pump supply froze.

February 17, 2021, 12:04 AM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by 1s1k:
At least the west Texas Mayor cares.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...tml%3foutputType=amp

May he get shingles, kidney stones, and gout back to back to back.

February 17, 2021, 12:07 AM

midwest guy

How can El Paso and Hudspeth county be on the Western grid and not on ERCOT?

February 17, 2021, 12:13 AM

Balzé Halzé

quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
quote:
Originally posted by 1s1k:
At least the west Texas Mayor cares.

May he get shingles, kidney stones, and gout back to back to back.

Well he's a real piece of work, eh? Dang.

February 17, 2021, 12:23 AM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
quote:
Originally posted by houndawg:
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
Not a green nut, but this isn’t a fair criticism. Multiple power sources are down in Texas because of weather, including nuclear (needs water to function and cool, said water is frozen), natural gas and coal (water needed as well), as well as wind.

Nukes up north manage just fine in the winter. Water doesn't freeze any different in the south

Same exact point as my wind related infrastructure one - the Texas power production infrastructure isn’t protected against brutal cold weather in a similar way to northern nuclear/gas/wind etc.

Nukes work in brutally cold climates, as does gas, coal, and wind; the key is that the actual hardware has to be designed for that.

Texas is not, hence why the grid is down. Hasn’t got much to do with green energy (which sucks, I agree), and more to do with infrastructure that isn’t designed to work in freezing conditions.

As you said:

"The short answer: They aren’t required to cold-proof their assets. While generators in chillier regions are typically compelled by federal or state rules to protect their plants from the elements, Texas plants can leave their pipes, valves and pressure gauges exposed. It’s cheaper that way."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news...lements?srnd=premium