As somebody who's been licensed, has family and friends in the business, and understands what is involved in a typical real estate transaction.....


It's a flipping racket intentionally deigned to separate you from as much of your money as possible.

This doesn't mean that real estate agents don't serve a necessary role. This doesn't mean that there aren't great agents that do a great job for their clients.

Rhetorical question... How did we get to a point in this country where you essentially have to deal with a real estate agent to conduct business? Just about every other single asset can be transacted by oneself, but our current system is set up to feed the real estate industry. Weird:

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The largest lobbyist group in the U.S. is the National Association of Realtors, who spent over $84 billion on lobbying in 2022.

Real estate isn't rocket science, and any real estate attorney can handle a transaction for a few billable hours in many cases. Why is it that somebody with a law degree can handle this for a price per hour, but an agent who took a few hours of real estate training and passed a test on the internet needs a percentage of the transaction?

What is it about a $500,000 house transaction that's different than a $250,000 transaction that makes the first twice as expensive? I'm already familiar with the platitudes, but let's face it. There's no real difference here.

All of a sudden there's now talk of agents properly pricing homes, when we know that's not the case. We know this because right here on this forum, going back months, we've had conversations about listing prices being intentionally low (no intent to sell for that price) in order to start an auction, or bidding war as the unlicensed auctioneers call it.

Marketing is brought up, but I think the majority of the costs associated with marketing is actually finding clients and not actually facilitating the transactions. You have to list a house or find a buyer to get your 2.5%. This isn't the 1980's where we are printing listings in a phone book style directory and running newspaper ads to let the people know they're for sale. People hop on the internet, and with a few clicks see what's available.

Finding a realtor seems a bit like finding a good building trades contractor. Good realtors definitely have value, but it can be hard to find a good one.

We wasted time with three realtors when looking for a house. It felt like we went to a car dealer, actually, as they tried to quickly force us into the most expensive house they could find with little effort or listening. We finally found a realtor that listened and actually helped us find a house.

So, roll the dice with what seems like a good realtor and pay 6% to 8% commission, or try FSBO? A good number of people locally have used FSBO quite successfully.

Knock realtors all you want, they have an important role to play here, but some of you don’t seem to understand all the work behind the scenes.

Sure do FSBO in this insane market where there inexplicably seems like there are NO HOUSES to even sell with even total pieces of shit getting snapped up in a day or a weekend, BUT when this market returns to normal and there’s a lot of inventory like there normally would be, what are you going to do then?

Thank God our realtor was working hard and pushing open houses and lots of marketing in September 2017 when we had literally 35 days to sell our existing home to be able to buy the one two doors down in an estate sale. He found us a young couple that wanted a starter home and they loved it and jumped on it and all the pieces then fell into place for us for the next home.

Yes, since that was an estate sale we did not use a realtor on that end and just went through an attorney. Was strange to meet in a lawyer’s office to close on a house and not a real estate company’s facility.

My point is, the realtors do earn that commission in most cases if you do the numbers and figure out all the costs by doing it yourself including the cost of your own time.

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My point is, the realtors do earn that commission in most cases if you do the numbers and figure out all the costs by doing it yourself including the cost of your own time.

Fair enough

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some of you don’t seem to understand all the work behind the scenes.

Could you provide us with a list of all of this behind the scenes work, the approximate time involved with each of those tasks, and any expenses are involved?

Just some rough numbers, and we will use a $500K listing with a 6% commission ($30,000) to come up with a rough hourly expense.

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Originally posted by Hildur:

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by Hildur:
It's impossible to under price a home if it sells for the appraised value (or more). The entire purpose of an appraisal is to give a snapshot of what comparable properties have sold for in the last 3-6 months. I'm not looking to break the housing ceiling and set new highs. I'm content to get market or 5-10% over if there's strong interest with motivated buyers. Any realtor who thinks they can get more can agree to it on paper. I'll sign any realtor if they are so confident in their abilities that they will guarantee to get me more than 10% of the appraised value. Anything less, they work for free. Let's see how many are willing to live up to that contract.

Never understood why people think realtors should work for free. If you can do it yourself and are happy that’s great. But my wife has a few thousand into a listing from the beginning. Pictures and marketing alone are that much. Then she’s dealing with all sorts of issues at all hours, 7 days a week.

I never said realtors should work for free but for them to make $35-40k for a house that sells itself is excessive. I can take phone calls and emails at all hours of the day; I've done it all my life. There are NO issues with this property and it'll pass inspection with flying colors. I set the terms and if a buyer or their agent want to get cute with me, they can buy another house. Here's the active listings for my town: Link

There's 4 comparable houses for sale in my price range and 3 are contingent. I'm pretty confident I'm the one with the leverage here. I get an appraisal, ask for 5-10% over it then let the market decide. I have no issue giving full disclosure and selling my home as is. If the buyers agree and I'm confident they can come up with the funds my real estate lawyer should have the contract/closing process locked down. Besides market exposure (which I can get for under $2k) what exactly is a selling realtor supposed to do for me? Get 10%+ over appraised value? Like I said before, any realtor who guarantees they can get 10% over appraisal I'll be happy to sign them.

$35-40K?? Really, you selling million dollar homes? Realtor splits commission with the buyer's agent. Then the brokerage gets a chunk. Now, the only thing I will give you is that, they do make good money on the transaction. The reason the fees need to be large is that a huge number of deals don't come together. No one would be realtor for some tiny commission knowing they couldn't make a living off of it.

Again if you are happy with appraised value in this market, go for it. You'll get it. If Southern NH is anything like here in northern MA (I suspect it is) there is low inventory and people paying well over appraised value.

Asking for guarantees on sales is just a silly comment. You know no one will do that. Except "We buy ugly houses" guys. You won't get near appraised value though.

You know what they do, you just told us in a previous post that you have friends and family in the biz.

Not going to play that game with you.

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Originally posted by HKAngusKL:

There is a real (and probably unethical) trend that results in buyers getting steered away from FSBO and reduced commission properties and toward listings with a favorable commission.
commission splits a thing.(Big time Democrats and total assholes to boot, go figure).

I don't think it's unethical to want to bet paid your going rate.

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You know what they do, you just told us in a previous post that you have friends and family in the biz.

Not going to play that game with you.

Correct. But the average person doesn't, and hasn't done the math. Can we be generous and say on average there's 40 hours invested?

I know I'm being over simplistic as ever deal is a bit different. But let's say there's $5,000 spent on marketing that $500K home (there won't be) and 40 human hours of time involved in the transaction. That means the seller is paying $625 an hour for that service. If comparing whether to invest one's own time or hire a professional, it's good to have some ballpark numbers for comparison purposes. How much is your time worth?

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HKAngusKL:

There is a real (and probably unethical) trend that results in buyers getting steered away from FSBO and reduced commission properties and toward listings with a favorable commission.
commission splits a thing.(Big time Democrats and total assholes to boot, go figure).

I don't think it's unethical to want to bet paid your going rate.

Open up the MLS direct to consumers and sellers and see what the going rate would be if people could search all listings and go to the seller direct.

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Originally posted by ridewv:

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Originally posted by frayedends:

Exactly opposite in both situations. Most FSBO people overprice their homes. A good realtor prices it competitively. Of course, the seller dictates the price so it’s not always going to be what the realtor recommends. Sellers often think it’s worth more than it is. Especially the “ I got more than that into it” types.

In order to get your listing, and make it appear that using their service isn't really going to cost you, realtors generally mislead by saying "I can probably get more $ for your home to offset my commission, and "I have clients right now looking for property like yours" to get you to sign with them.

LOL crazy that someone would say that because what one has in it has no bearing with what anything is worth.

I just find it crazy how much money realtors take in the process of selling and buying a property. In this day and age, especially with the internet to use, it's easier than ever to research what your home's worth, sell, or buy w/o a realtor.

I've never seen those types of statements from good realtors. Sometimes a realtor will have a buyer and work a deal with a seller. My wife thinks that's unethical. You aren't doing your seller any favors by stopping competition in offers.

I thought like you once though, so I don't blame you. As I said before, I did FSBO in the past, specifically because I thought the same thing. But living with a top agent for a few years and seeing the amount of shit she goes through for the commission, it's a lot fucking harder than my corporate job. Some of you guys may do a good job knowing your property value. But I can tell you the vast majority are way off.

Overprice your home and you totally fuck yourself. First, people have a set top number they want to spend. If your price is over that, they won't look. Then the people that do look think, that fucking house is overpriced. Screw that. Then your house sits for 60 days. You lower the price and then all the buyers say, "Why the fuck has that house been on market so long."

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Originally posted by bryan11:
Finding a realtor seems a bit like finding a good building trades contractor. Good realtors definitely have value, but it can be hard to find a good one.

We wasted time with three realtors when looking for a house. It felt like we went to a car dealer, actually, as they tried to quickly force us into the most expensive house they could find with little effort or listening. We finally found a realtor that listened and actually helped us find a house.

So, roll the dice with what seems like a good realtor and pay 6% to 8% commission, or try FSBO? A good number of people locally have used FSBO quite successfully.

The biggest tip I'd give someone finding a realtor is see how many transactions they do. You want someone who does this full time. You want someone who relies on it as their sole income. They will work with you. Then see how they communicate. If they don't get back to you quickly that is a red flag. My wife answers everything immediately unless unable for some real reason.

Also, my wife doesn't make anyone sign a buyer's broker contract. If she shows you a house she get the commission, but if you decide to move on or find something and leave her out, so be it.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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My point is, the realtors do earn that commission in most cases if you do the numbers and figure out all the costs by doing it yourself including the cost of your own time.

Fair enough

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some of you don’t seem to understand all the work behind the scenes.

Could you provide us with a list of all of this behind the scenes work, the approximate time involved with each of those tasks, and any expenses are involved?

Just some rough numbers, and we will use a $500K listing with a 6% commission ($30,000) to come up with a rough hourly expense.

You didn't pay the buyer's broker. You didn't pay the brokerage. The pictures were $800. Deal falls through, taken off market, realtor doesn't get that money back. Realtor goes to house for pictures, 2 hours. Realtor buys mailers to send out, a few hundred bucks. Realtor take 30 phone calls from the buyer's agent asking all kinds of crap. Agent deals with the mortgage company, deals with appraisal gaps. Did your buyer's offer cover the appraisal gap or did you just lose the deal because you didn't think of that.

FHA/VA loan, agent knows the dollar limits in your area and makes sure you don't lose the sale because of that. Paint chipping, railing not secure? Oops VA just denied funds and you lose the sale.

That 30K you wrote, is 10K in the realtor's pocket. And yes, you are paying a bit for the deals that don't come together. If you didn't then realtors wouldn't make a living. There's just too much that goes into selling houses and too few houses to sell to expect they are the same as selling t-shirts.

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HKAngusKL:

There is a real (and probably unethical) trend that results in buyers getting steered away from FSBO and reduced commission properties and toward listings with a favorable commission.
commission splits a thing.(Big time Democrats and total assholes to boot, go figure).

I don't think it's unethical to want to bet paid your going rate.

Open up the MLS direct to consumers and sellers and see what the going rate would be if people could search all listings and go to the seller direct.

You said it was unethical to steer buyers away from FSBO. So my wife should work for free? If she has a buyer she is showing houses, she should go show them all the houses she won't get paid for ? She should go out on the showings, deal with the mortgage, attorney's and all the other crap for free or some discounted rate?

Let's not get off track. There is definitely work involved in selling a house. I started this thread because I am willing to put in the work to avoid the realtor fee. I'm fortunate that the market is in my favor. I've worked with enough realtors to understand their business model/compensation and in most markets their commissions are justifiable. Regardless, that isn't the case here which is why I'm not going to use one. The purpose of this thread was to get advice from those who have sold their properties without a realtor and to get any advice that may help me through this process. It wasn't meant to be a debate about the value of a realtor.

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HKAngusKL:

There is a real (and probably unethical) trend that results in buyers getting steered away from FSBO and reduced commission properties and toward listings with a favorable commission.
commission splits a thing.(Big time Democrats and total assholes to boot, go figure).

I don't think it's unethical to want to bet paid your going rate.

Open up the MLS direct to consumers and sellers and see what the going rate would be if people could search all listings and go to the seller direct.

You said it was unethical to steer buyers away from FSBO. So my wife should work for free? If she has a buyer she is showing houses, she should go show them all the houses she won't get paid for ? She should go out on the showings, deal with the mortgage, attorney's and all the other crap for free or some discounted rate?

Actually I didn't HKAngusKL did mention it.

Never said she should work for free, what I said was, change the way the market works, open up MLS to the people, and the rate will normalize to whatever the market will bear.

MLS is used as a weapon by the realtor market to hold sellers captive and force them into high cost sales commissions.

A 500K house now carries a $35K commission, that's JMO absurd, and it only exists because of the very exclusive and restrictive market listings on MLS...

People who want agents will hire them, and the rate will be commiserate with market forces was my point.

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by frayedends:

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Originally posted by HKAngusKL:

There is a real (and probably unethical) trend that results in buyers getting steered away from FSBO and reduced commission properties and toward listings with a favorable commission.
commission splits a thing.(Big time Democrats and total assholes to boot, go figure).

I don't think it's unethical to want to bet paid your going rate.

Open up the MLS direct to consumers and sellers and see what the going rate would be if people could search all listings and go to the seller direct.

You said it was unethical to steer buyers away from FSBO. So my wife should work for free? If she has a buyer she is showing houses, she should go show them all the houses she won't get paid for ? She should go out on the showings, deal with the mortgage, attorney's and all the other crap for free or some discounted rate?

If FSBO or reduced commission properties otherwise meet a prospective buyer's criteria, and a buyer's agent refuses to show them those properties solely based upon their potential commission, then yes. The market here has been tight for years and inventory is still low. Steering clients and taking advantage in this type of an environment will catch up to you when the market cycle changes.

The other practice that I have noticed is that some real estate groups keep "pocket listings" off of MLS. The listing agent then then convinces the seller to take an offer from an in-house buyer so they keep both sides of the commission.

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Originally posted by Hildur:
.....The purpose of this thread was to get advice from those who have sold their properties without a realtor and to get any advice that may help me through this process. It wasn't meant to be a debate about the value of a realtor.

House I sold in 2019 I listed on Zillow, the two before that were word of mouth, all in a strong market. One before them, which was a while back, was a sign in the yard and newspaper ad. Were I selling now I'd utilize the internet sites such as Zillow or FSBO, spread the word with all your friends, neighbors, and people at work, sign in the yard.

Got off the phone with one reputable lawyer in the area. Here's the breakdown:

Lawyer charges a flat fee of $650. That includes everything on our end to close the deal; reviewing as many Purchase & Sales agreements as needed, drafting the deed, representation at closing, etc.

I can take my own photos and put the property on MLS for $250-500 depending on the brokerage I use and how long I want it on the system.

Appraisal and building inspection are out of my own pocket, shouldn't exceed $1,000.

I set the compensation for the buyer's agent. Either fixed fee or 1.5-2%. Given the lack of inventory this lawyer is seeing buyer's agents take 1.5% because there's nothing available and people want to live in Salem because it's right on the border of Mass. Every other town around Salem adds another 20-30 minutes for a round trip commute into Massachusetts.

I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in town. The house down the street from her was listed for 3 days and had 1 open house where the line of parked cars to see it stretched down the length of her street and up to her driveway (a good quarter mile). The house sold the same day.

Have no qualms with a buyers agent bringing in qualified prospects at 1.5 to 2 points, IMHO it's reasonable to expect a fee for performing that work as long as they are bringing in people who are pre-qualified or cash offers.

With your market, if that's the case, FSBO, put a sign out, you'll have realtors on your doorstep before you get back in the house LOL....

Yes, I have in 2004. Had a Professional Sign made with flyers and box attached. Hired my own real estate attorney for the transaction. The sale went well. No complaints.