Ours isn't much better, and I'm not even self-employed. We have a $6000 individual / $12000 family deductible, and we're paying right around $1000 month in premiums....on a group plan. Real kicker is the deductible went up $4000 this year, and so did the premiums. Affordable Care Act my ass. The only thing I can figure is that they purposely designed this to fail so they could nationalized healthcare under a single-payer system without anybody complaining.

Maybe it is time to revolt, quit paying, go to the ER for everything like the illegals do and crash the system.

I am not poor, but neither am I wealthy. $42,000 a year however would create financial ruin.

Hoping to retire in 5-6 years at 60 or 61, but it is totally dependent on health care. Ha e looked at the medishare stuff, hoping it is still around at comparable cost to it is now when the time comes as it would probably be the only way I can retire as hoped.


Fucking insane.

quote:

Originally posted by NK402:
Whether it's Obamacare or Trumpcare, you are never going to have "affordable healthcare" as long as the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies are given free rein. That is the current situation.

ACA has mandated minimum Medical Loss Ratios. If 80 or 85%, dependent on program, is not spent on claims, refunds must be issued. There are a few cases of that happening.

Let's say that processing costs, admin costs, network maintenance costs, salaries and the typical 3% profit margin were done away with, in addition to the insurance company quickly leaving the business, what would a hypothetical premium be? 80% of $2200.00 per month. Anyone think that solves the problem?

Prescription drug costs are about 12-16% of a pool's claims. Free drugs for all! That won't fix it either.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
Maybe it is time to revolt, quit paying, go to the ER for everything like the illegals do and crash the system.

I am not poor, but neither am I wealthy. $42,000 a year however would create financial ruin.

Hoping to retire in 5-6 years at 60 or 61, but it is totally dependent on health care. Ha e looked at the medishare stuff, hoping it is still around at comparable cost to it is now when the time comes as it would probably be the only way I can retire as hoped.


Fucking insane.

An argument can be made the system crashed already. Wishing for it to crash is like shooting yourself in the temple because you have a migraine.

It would be cheaper for me to have a bad drug habit than what I am paying per month.

quote:

Originally posted by dgshooter:
Originally, Obama and the democrats were to blame. Senate Republicans own it now. Shame on them.

Sadly, no. The fireman who fails to put out the fire, while arguably an incompetent fireman, is not guilty of arson.

The numbers I am seeing here are downright crazy. Damn.

The republicans own this. Why? Because they are in charge. The buck ends with them. It doesn't matter that they didn't cause it, they were in command when it went south and failed to prevent it. Do you think someone who is facing these prices will go to a town hall with his "R" rep and take the excuse of "but I didn't vote for it"? Will that excuse pay your premiums? Oh and by the way, that rep is exempt from O-Care. For seven years we were told by the republicans that they would fix it. Give us the power, give us control. We gave it to them. They failed. So when it implodes, as it is doing, it will be because of them. Because they are in charge and did nothing.

The fireman is not responsible for the arsonist. But if he knew the fire was going to be set, and he knew it would lead to the complete destruction of the building, and he failed to do anything to prevent it? He shares the blame due to his inaction. That was his job, and he failed to do it.

They shot themselves in the foot with these empty promises. Just like they are doing with tax reform. I honestly believe the republicans are not ready to govern. I believe they would have much preferred a Clinton victory so they could raise campaign money for their reelection campaigns by vowing to "fight" her. If they keep up this all talk no action path they are on they will find themselves on the losing end come election time. Which I personally believe McConnell wouldn't mind. Less stress, same pay and benefits.

quote:

If they keep up this all talk no action path they are on they will find themselves on the losing end come election time. Which I personally believe McConnell wouldn't mind.

The House is not as bad as the Senate. But it's time to vote in new leadership. McConnell is weak or lazy or incompetent or he just isn't getting it done. Of course, it doesn't help that McCain, Murkowski, Collins are still in the Senate.

We will have a good chance to defeat Claire McCaskill here in MO a year from now.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good."

This is a big part of the problem. Each thinks they need to get 100% or they won't vote for any progress. When you're on a steep downward slope, you first have to stop the decent, level out then go up. Yes it would be nice to get it all or most at once but there needs to be some progress in the right direction.
They need to take the NRA approach. Get a bill that has some progress passed, then get another one out there that shows more progress.
Unfortunately this latest round of "Change you can believe in" has brought things to a crisis for many, including me. If there is one good thing, maybe it will result in some action in the right direction.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
The republicans own this. Why? Because they are in charge. The buck ends with them. It doesn't matter that they didn't cause it, they were in command when it went south and failed to prevent it. Do you think someone who is facing these prices will go to a town hall with his "R" rep and take the excuse of "but I didn't vote for it"? Will that excuse pay your premiums? Oh and by the way, that rep is exempt from O-Care. For seven years we were told by the republicans that they would fix it. Give us the power, give us control. We gave it to them. They failed. So when it implodes, as it is doing, it will be because of them. Because they are in charge and did nothing.

The fireman is not responsible for the arsonist. But if he knew the fire was going to be set, and he knew it would lead to the complete destruction of the building, and he failed to do anything to prevent it? He shares the blame due to his inaction. That was his job, and he failed to do it.

They shot themselves in the foot with these empty promises. Just like they are doing with tax reform. I honestly believe the republicans are not ready to govern. I believe they would have much preferred a Clinton victory so they could raise campaign money for their reelection campaigns by vowing to "fight" her. If they keep up this all talk no action path they are on they will find themselves on the losing end come election time. Which I personally believe McConnell wouldn't mind. Less stress, same pay and benefits.

The Democrats passed the ACA with a SUPER majority in the Senate. Without this, Obamacare would not have passed. Due to the Senate rules, it will require a super majority to repeal it.

You can scream bloody murder all day at the Republicans, but until this nation provides them with 60 Senators, the Democrats retain the power to block any repeal. That's just the facts.

BTW, my insurance premium went from $1600 a month this year to $2900 next. I guess I'll just die. It's cheaper.

^^^^
And under the rules they were operating under they needed 51 votes to severely gut it into oblivion. That didn't happen.

Supermajority or not, they own it now.

Obamacare Set To Drive New Wave Of Hospital Bankruptcies

Back in 2008, one of the biggest arguments in favor of Obamacare was that the legislation would help alleviate bad debt at hospitals created by people who required emergency care but didn't have health insurance or the financial means to cover their treatment. Of course, like most promises made about Obamacare, the exact opposite of the Left's original theories has played out in reality as restructuring lawyers are now warning that the healthcare industry is about to experience a massive wave of hospital bankruptcies. Per Bloomberg:

A wave of hospitals and other medical companies are likely to restructure their debt or file for bankruptcy in the coming year, following the recent spate of failing retailers and energy drillers, according to restructuring professionals. Regulatory changes, technological advances and the rise of urgent-care centers have created a "perfect storm" for health-care companies, said David Neier, a partner in the New York office of law firm Winston & Strawn LLC.



Some signs are already there: Health-care bankruptcy filings have more than tripled this year according to data compiled by Bloomberg, and an index of Chapter 11 filings by companies with more than $1 million of assets has reached record highs in four of the last six quarters, according to law firm Polsinelli PC. Junk bonds from companies in the industry have dropped 1.4 percent this month, a steeper decline than the broader high-yield market, according to Bloomberg Barclays index data.



Since 1997, health-care cases have made up only 5.25 percent of all U.S. bankruptcy filings, according to Bloomberg data. Year to date, they already comprise 7.25 percent of all filings. Emergency-room operator Adeptus Health, cancer-care provider 21st Century Oncology, and cancer treatment specialist California Proton Treatment are the largest filings. Those statistics exclude pharmaceutical company Concordia, which is restructuring in Canada, and Preferred Care Inc., one of the U.S.’s largest nursing home groups, operating 108 assisted living facilities.

Hospital

So what has caused the sudden onset of hospital failures? Well, because Obamacare's architects were so certain their legislation would completely eliminate uninsured citizens in the U.S., they decided to offset the costs of the "Affordable Care Act" by eliminating subsidy payments to hospitals that had previously been used to cover losses from treating uninsured patients...

Hospitals, including private rural ones, may be among the hardest hit, Winston & Strawn’s Neier said. The Affordable Care Act, known as Obamacare, reduced payments to hospitals that serve a large number of poor and uninsured patients, known as "disproportionate share hospitals," on the theory that more patients would be insured under the law. Congress delayed those cuts several times, but didn’t do so for the current fiscal year, which may "single-handedly throw hospitals into immediate financial distress -- many operate on less than one day’s cash,” he said in an interview.



"Smaller hospitals have already been struggling for years,” said Kristin Going, a partner in the New York office of Drinker, Biddle & Reath LLP. Both lawyers declined to discuss specific companies. Since 2010, a growing number of patients have enrolled in high-deductible health plans that force them to shoulder more of costs when they get treatment, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That has translated into more bad debt from customers for hospitals and other providers.



Some publicly traded hospital companies that were already under pressure from high debt loads have been further buffeted by this year’s hurricanes. Community Health Systems Inc., with $1.9 billion in debt maturing in 2019, has suffered doctor revolts over crumbling, cash-strapped facilities, as well as losses linked to the storms in Texas and Florida earlier this year. A representative for Community Health didn’t return a call seeking comment.

...of course, here in reality, things didn't quite play out so perfectly as surging Obamacare premiums have pushed more and more people into high deductible plans or have forced them to forego insurance altogether and opt instead to simply pay the tax penalties levied by the legislation. Shocking that folks could not simply absorb a doubling of their healthcare premiums ...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...ospital-bankruptcies

quote:

Shocking that folks could not simply absorb a doubling of their healthcare premiums ...

It's a real head scratcher I tell ya.

There are a number of ways to kill Obamacare AND fix the system without needing a supermajority in the Senate. First off, defund the Obamacare enforcement at the IRS. Nobody likes the IRS, it would pass the Senate and without enforcement, no one will pay the penalties, crashing O-care. Second, tell the States that have set it up so only a handful (or less) of insurers can do business in their state that the DOJ will go after them using the Interstate Commerce Clause and suing them to open up insurance across state lines. Allow importation of drugs and devices from trusted overseas sources, say in Canada, the UK, and the EU. Finally, what I call the "paybacks are hell" approach - let everyone who opposes fixing the system know that every resource of the federal government will be used to make their lives miserable. Let Senator McCain know he will lose his position on the Armed Services Committee. Let Sen. Flake know that the Republican party will oppose all his future political efforts. Publicly pillory the states whose Senators won't co-operate with repeal and replace.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
There are a number of ways to kill Obamacare AND fix the system without needing a supermajority in the Senate. First off, defund the Obamacare enforcement at the IRS. Nobody likes the IRS, it would pass the Senate and without enforcement, no one will pay the penalties, crashing O-care. Second, tell the States that have set it up so only a handful (or less) of insurers can do business in their state that the DOJ will go after them using the Interstate Commerce Clause and suing them to open up insurance across state lines. Allow importation of drugs and devices from trusted overseas sources, say in Canada, the UK, and the EU. Finally, what I call the "paybacks are hell" approach - let everyone who opposes fixing the system know that every resource of the federal government will be used to make their lives miserable. Let Senator McCain know he will lose his position on the Armed Services Committee. Let Sen. Flake know that the Republican party will oppose all his future political efforts. Publicly pillory the states whose Senators won't co-operate with repeal and replace.

Crossing State lines does nothing for rates. Rates are driven by claims experience and health care is a local service. Those covered in State A by a company in State C are still the same risk. Their utilization follows them. Their cost of service is the cost of the home State local Providers.

quote:

Crossing State lines does nothing for rates. Rates are driven by claims experience and health care is a local service. Those covered in State A by a company in State C are still the same risk. Their utilization follows them. Their cost of service is the cost of the home State local Providers.

The purpose of selling across state lines is to create competition in health insurance as competition exists in car insurance and in homeowners insurance.

Your statement that "health care is a local service" is true, but auto repair is also a local service as is roof repair.

The problem impeding competition is the services mandated and required not just by Obamacare but also by the State legislatures and insurance commissioners.

Reduce the required services to something much more basic, and nationwide competition will be possible.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Crossing State lines does nothing for rates. Rates are driven by claims experience and health care is a local service. Those covered in State A by a company in State C are still the same risk. Their utilization follows them. Their cost of service is the cost of the home State local Providers.

The purpose of selling across state lines is to create competition in health insurance as competition exists in car insurance and in homeowners insurance.

Your statement that "health care is a local service" is true, but auto repair is also a local service as is roof repair.

The problem impeding competition is the services mandated and required not just by Obamacare but also by the State legislatures and insurance commissioners.

Reduce the required services to something much more basic, and nationwide competition will be possible.

Basically, just get the government out of this and let the free market do its thing.
Even before this disaster, the whole thing was too highly regulated and the consumer was too insulated from the market because the employer was the one making many of the purchasing decisions.
There were few incentives for the end user to control any of the expenditures.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Crossing State lines does nothing for rates. Rates are driven by claims experience and health care is a local service. Those covered in State A by a company in State C are still the same risk. Their utilization follows them. Their cost of service is the cost of the home State local Providers.

The purpose of selling across state lines is to create competition in health insurance as competition exists in car insurance and in homeowners insurance.

Your statement that "health care is a local service" is true, but auto repair is also a local service as is roof repair.

The problem impeding competition is the services mandated and required not just by Obamacare but also by the State legislatures and insurance commissioners.

Reduce the required services to something much more basic, and nationwide competition will be possible.

Your counter is a different argument. I agree that reducing benefits, removing mandates in particular, lowers costs. Its completely obvious that taking away part of the coverage lowers premium. However, competition has limited potential. Number 1, any true competition is always within a local market. You are not thinking about CLAIMS. That's were the money (80%) is spent. Profit margin is 3%. Number 2, if you care to assume that competition can reduce the remaining overhead, go ahead and assume a 20% reduction can be reached somehow, then 20% of the 17% available is 3.4% of the total premium. Hardly enough to generate a mention in the media.

Health Insurance is priced completely differently from auto and homeowners. Completely. Totally.

Incidentally, most health insurance is group based and much of that is self funded/self insured. Federal Law already exempts these plans from State Insurance Commissioner mandates. Nothing prevents a carrier from crossing State lines with multi site Employer groups.

quote:

Shocking that folks could not simply absorb a doubling of their healthcare premiums ...

If it was only doubling the premiums I think we'd for the most part be fine. My premiums have more than doubled, combined with moving from the Cadillac of plans. $500 deductible Max out of pocket of $1,500. Medicine was covered from day one, now prescriptions are subject to my High Deductible plan.

So for more than double the cost I get far less than half the coverage.

HDHPs were originally developed to serve more financially savvy people who understood they were self insuring part of their healthcare and could withstand a hit in the event of major illness or injury. They are not for the general public who have always used health insurance as prepaid medical services. Most people can't budget for their refrigerator to fail, how can we expect them to budget for $5,000 individual deductibles or $12,000 family deductibles? Especially when coupled with $30,000+ insurance premiums?

This in turn has created a no man's land of people in the middle class who either can't afford coverage, or if they are lucky enough to afford it, they are terrified of if little Johnny gets the sniffles or breaks an arm. Insurance and healthcare is no longer affordable to those people without having your employer heavily subsidize it. A little mentioned fact is that insurance alone is stifling small business and destroying the backbone of our economy.

Imagine what could have been accomplished if they just installed a 100% tax on insurance premiums. Yes your premiums would have doubled, but you could have kept your insurance/doctor. The tax revenues could have afforded to buy a plan for every uninsured individual in the US and built a couple of bridges and highways, then still had money leftover. Where exactly is all this extra money going to that we all pay?