With Boris Johnson in charge, rather than wobbly Mrs. May, I think that the UK will retain control of Gibraltar.

“The EU is set to back Spain's claim to Gibraltar and give Madrid the power to exclude the Rock from a future Brexit trade deal, according to reports.

In the latest move by Spain to take advantage of Brexit to stake its claim on the Rock, Madrid have said Gibraltar must be mentioned in the EU's initial negotiating position to be published on Monday.

It said Gibraltar should be left out of Britain's new relationship with the EU unless Spain gives explicit permission for the contrary, the Observer reports.

A senior EU diplomat said: 'They have in principle asked that the new relationship not apply to Gibraltar without the explicit consent of Spain, which will only be given if the bilateral talks with Spain and the UK over the rock are resolved.'
……
The Rock's 2006 constitution stipulates that there can be no transfer of sovereignty to Spain against the wishes of its voters.

In a referendum in 2002, Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected the idea of joint sovereignty between the UK and Spain…”

https://mol.im/a/7956905

The UK is demonstrating why the EU is bad, very bad, for its member states.

Those that remain will eventually find themselves; their culture, laws and traditions, all subsumed by Brussels.

Yeah, but look at it this way - as selfish and self-centered as France and Germany have been within the EU, what are the odds that this "assistance" they're offering Spain over a long-standing but relatively minor issue will have any real effect? If the northern Europeans see an advantage to themselves then they won't be able to throw Madrid under the bus fast enough. After all, the EU has a ready-made excuse; Spain's economy and the whole conflict over Catalunya can easily be posed as evidence of Spain's moral deficiencies.

I recall the Brits had no problem settling a similar dispute over the Falklands.

True, but, to be fair, I recall the Argentinians having no problems getting Exocet missiles from France.

Boris should simply reply: "Come and take it".

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
Boris should simply reply: "Come and take it".

The proper SigForum response!

So if Spain is demanding Gibralter back, are they going to give up the Canary Islands, Melilla and Ceuta to Morocco? Just sayin...

The Gibraltar issue was sensationalized by Spain and the British press during the Brexit negotiations already, when the EU gave the former a "veto" on any deal. Of course then as now, the simple fact is that all EU members must consent on any eventual agreement, so each has a "veto" anyway. Spain however absolutely wanted it written in explicitely, which rather annoyed Brussels; their biggest fear during the negotiations was that European unity would fall apart over diverse national interests. After Brexit now, the case is somewhat altered since obviously the EU will back the interests of its member Spain, but not of its non-member Britain.

I have no doubt Spain really hopes to get Gibraltar back; I was surprised from interaction with Spaniards how much of a sore point the issue still is, given that the territory is just 2.5 square miles they had to surrender 300 years ago. They like to point out that the governor and others of the Gribraltar elite actually have nice residences on the Spanish mainland rather than the congested territory itself, accuse the Brits of exceeding the stipulations of the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, quibble over historic landmarks, etc. Apparently today's Gibraltar airport is in what was originally a neutral zone, which the Brits encroached upon after first building a quarantine hospital there during some epidemic. Even in an EU with supposedly unrestricted internal freedom of movement, Spain frequently played games with border checks and territorial waters (which IIRC they argue don't exist for Gibraltar, because they're not in the treaty).

What's in their favor is that like Hong Kong (of which it has 0.6 percent the size, 0.5 percent the population, and 0.2 percent the economy), Gibraltar is not really viable without the hinterland in the modern world. Which is why the territory voted 96 percent Remain in the Brexit referendum, the highest such result in the UK I believe. That makes it one of the regions Boris Johnson has to demonstrate to they will be no worse off outside of the EU. To the latter, irrespective of Spanish national pride, it thus becomes a bargaining chip exceeding its material size in value. In essence, they get to ask Johnson how much British national pride of Gibraltar is worth to him if he has to prop it up economically when a trade agreement doesn't include the territory.

^^^^^^^^
Good post, BansheeOne. Very informative.

Looking at a map, it isn't hard to imagime Gibraltar will be significantly negatively impacted if it remains part of the UK. All of the goods imported/exported at the port will now have to go through Spanish and British Customs at the border? The cruise ship and airline passengers will have to go through a Customs checkpoint as well? How about the people that work there? Do a lot of them commute from Spain?

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Those that remain will eventually find themselves; their culture, laws and traditions, all subsumed by Brussels.

Subsumed means to include once absorbed...

They won't be subsumed...their traditions, culture, laws, and such will be eradicated.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Looking at a map, it isn't hard to imagime Gibraltar will be significantly negatively impacted if it remains part of the UK. All of the goods imported/exported at the port will now have to go through Spanish and British Customs at the border? The cruise ship and airline passengers will have to go through a Customs checkpoint as well? How about the people that work there? Do a lot of them commute from Spain?

Gibraltar is not part of the UK. It is a British Overseas Territory. It has its their own form of government, and those who live their under it auspices can make up their own minds what they want.

They recently had a referendum to decide what they wanted with their future, made their own minds up and decided overwhelmingly to remain a British Overseas Territory.

The Spanishards can go piss up a rope. Unless, of course, they want a war. Their blood brothers in Argentina got handed their collective asses in a bucket a few years back, trying it on with the British and the Falkland Islands, and the Spanish, last time they took on the British navy, back in 1588, let's just say THAT didn't go that well, either.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tacfoley,

Yeah, the Spanish have had their nose out of joint on Gibraltar ever since they negotiated it away.

Just finished a long and very detailed biography of Benjamin Franklin, and learned the Spanish belatedly joined the alliance against the UK during the American Revolutionary War, not to help fight for America's independence, but so they could try to limit the US's expansion and bottle us up east of the Mississippi. Then, when the war had been won without significant Spanish activity, they tried to hold up the Treaty of Paris ending the war until they got Gibraltar back.

We said 'screw that' and did our deal with Great Britian, dependent only on France's concurrence, not that of our 'ally' Spain. France didn't back Spain, did their own deal, the Spanish folded and the war ended with Gibraltar's status unchanged.

More recently, Franco could have let the Germans - his ally in the Spanish Civil War, which had only recently concluded at the time - through to take Gibraltar from land, but he didn't.

And so, it's still part of the Commonwealth.

It would have been much easier for the Spanish to just not lose Gibraltar in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Looking at a map, it isn't hard to imagime Gibraltar will be significantly negatively impacted if it remains part of the UK. All of the goods imported/exported at the port will now have to go through Spanish and British Customs at the border? The cruise ship and airline passengers will have to go through a Customs checkpoint as well? How about the people that work there? Do a lot of them commute from Spain?

Gibralter can be a self-sufficient, during the time of Franco's reign, border crossings were closed. Gibralter relies on its banking and tourism sectors to support it's economy. Port and repair facilities for shipping are also well established, however a hard border closure would likely see a temporary downturn in that business until work agreements can be arranged.

quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley:
Gibraltar is not part of the UK. It is an independent Crown Dependency, same as The Isle of Man, The Channel Islands and The Falkland Islands. They have their own form of government, and can make up their own minds what they want.

My mistake. I thought they were a British Overseas Territory like the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda and others.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:My mistake. I thought they were a British Overseas Territory like the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda and others.

Sir, I take it ALL back - YOU are right, and I am not.

It IS a British Overseas Territory like the Cayman Islands etc.

I will amend my erroneous post, post-haste.

So I assume this means the EU and especially the Spanish would be happy to recognize the Moroccan claims to Ceuta and Melilla and Spain's other North Afican plazas de soberanía, right?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Looking at a map, it isn't hard to imagime Gibraltar will be significantly negatively impacted if it remains part of the UK... How about the people that work there? Do a lot of them commute from Spain?

This is handled relatively easily in other similar areas, like the Kaliningrad Oblast. The Polish citizens from immediate surrounding area are able to get special visas to travel relatively freely into Kaliningrad, and vice versa for the Russian citizens in Kaliningrad.

quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley:
... the Spanish, last time they took on the British navy, back in 1588, let's just say THAT didn't go that well, either.

How DOES a Spanish Admiral review his Armada?