Couldn't Take An International Coworker Shooting Today

March 24, 2025, 09:37 PM

corsair

quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
I'm home now. We ended up shooting archery and still had fun.

The links on the indoor range's QR code and website all link to State Dept's Visa Waiver Program which has absolutely nothing to do with gun ranges. It's about who can and can't come to the US without a Visa. It's especially idiotic as my coworker has a Visa.

Sounds like their attempt at being compliant is getting confused with being unnecessarily restrictive; their management probably told them when in doubt, just say no. If someone escalates it, just call a manager/ownership.
It's their range, thier rules...most ranges I've been to, foreign customers just need to produce a passport and demonstrate an understanding of basic English.

March 24, 2025, 09:40 PM

snoris

quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
quote:
Originally posted by snoris:
I just did a search on ATF documents from several different sources and gun club websites. It looks like the prohibition is correct.
Any links?

Google the actual statute:

27 CFR 178.97

The result will give you several different websites that you can read. Some are more clear than others, but it appears that foreign nationals can't shoot at ranges in the U.S.

March 24, 2025, 09:57 PM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by snoris:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
quote:
Originally posted by snoris:
I just did a search on ATF documents from several different sources and gun club websites. It looks like the prohibition is correct.
Any links?

Google the actual statute:

27 CFR 178.97

The result will give you several different websites that you can read. Some are more clear than others, but it appears that foreign nationals can't shoot at ranges in the U.S.

I did and we had already covered 27 CFR 178.97 on page 1 an hour before you even posted yesterday. Neither part a nor part b apply to the situation. That is why I asked for a specific link.

As slosig pointed out Liberty Firearms Institute appears to be the source passing this along to ranges.

March 24, 2025, 10:43 PM

Rick Lee

Before NV accepted AZ CCWs, I took the NV class at The Gun Store in Vegas, the place that has all the billboard signs for renting machine guns. That place had its own taxi stand/ride share area for all the foreign tourists who wanted to rent machine guns. It was a sight to behold. Somehow that place flies under the radar. I don't think there was a native English speaker there and it was a two hour wait to get on the range. Fortunately, our range quals were done after closing.

March 24, 2025, 10:54 PM

Rey HRH

quote:
Originally posted by corsair:

Sounds like their attempt at being compliant is getting confused with being unnecessarily restrictive; their management probably told them when in doubt, just say no. If someone escalates it, just call a manager/ownership.
It's their range, thier rules...most ranges I've been to, foreign customers just need to produce a passport and demonstrate an understanding of basic English.

I agree and it's not like they're by themselves. I brought a ferner to a gun range. I don't remember is any documents were asked. But we did have to sit through a safety video as it was his first time shooting.

"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946.

March 25, 2025, 08:40 PM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by corsair:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
I'm home now. We ended up shooting archery and still had fun.

The links on the indoor range's QR code and website all link to State Dept's Visa Waiver Program which has absolutely nothing to do with gun ranges. It's about who can and can't come to the US without a Visa. It's especially idiotic as my coworker has a Visa.

Sounds like their attempt at being compliant is getting confused with being unnecessarily restrictive; their management probably told them when in doubt, just say no. If someone escalates it, just call a manager/ownership.
It's their range, thier rules...most ranges I've been to, foreign customers just need to produce a passport and demonstrate an understanding of basic English.

False plus unsubstantiated assumptions on your part.

Just like I do every time I go there we waited our turn at the rental counter, had our IDs ready, and said we wanted to share a lane for an hour. I stated I had been there before and it was his first time. Two things shocked me on Sunday:

complete 180 on their part. I've been taking foreign coworkers there for years. All are polite, well-spoken, engineers and Sunday was no exception. Their rules have always been bring an identification (eg DL or passport) and first timers watch the video. Even though this was the further away of the 2 nice indoor ranges, I explicitly went there due to my past experiences.

"it's the law" statement by rental counter clerk and pointing to sign with QR code, but the QR code doesn't point to an actual firearm law.

I was polite, asked what has changed since last summer, she couldn't/wouldn't answer, and we left. I didn't get mad, didn't ask to speak to a manager, etc. We just left and found something else fun to do.

Now, I want to figure out whether it's the law or not. If it's not, they've lost me as a customer as past experiences is the only reason I was still going to the older (9 years vs 1 year) and further away nice indoor range. If it's the law, I guess I'm done trying to help foreign coworkers have a once in a lifetime experience.

March 26, 2025, 03:01 PM

reflex/deflex 64

Is there a requirement to have a gun safety class to get a hunting license? I don’t need one in MN grandfathered in, however I do need one when hunting in CO.

The hunting license would serve as proof of a safety course?

March 26, 2025, 06:51 PM

HRK

quote:
Now, I want to figure out whether it's the law or not. If it's not, they've lost me as a customer as past experiences is the only reason I was still going to the older (9 years vs 1 year) and further away nice indoor range. If it's the law, I guess I'm done trying to help foreign coworkers have a once in a lifetime experience.

don't let one clerk set the future for you and your coworkers from overseas.

Do the research if you find their reasoning for the position to be incorrect then talk with a manager, explain the situation, your customer status, and that the law doesn't restrict international people from shooting.

Either the clerk was misinformed, the company legal beagle made an error in research, or they just don't want specific people shooting.

Or just find a range that will work with you.

March 26, 2025, 08:25 PM

tatortodd

I did some more Googling tonight and I think I found the actual chain of statutes that apply.

Here is 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B):

quote:
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
...
(5) who, being an alien—
...
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

Continuing on to 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2):

quote:
(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
...
(2) Exceptions.—Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who is—
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;
(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.

Sure wish the range's QR code pointed to 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2) instead of pointing to State Dept's Visa Waiver Program

March 28, 2025, 12:28 PM

Grants471

This link appears to have some decent info:

https://centennialgunclub.com/foreign-nationals/

March 28, 2025, 12:35 PM

tatortodd

quote:
Originally posted by Grants471:
This link appears to have some decent info:

https://centennialgunclub.com/foreign-nationals/

Sort of. 27 CFR 178.97 only applies to loan or rental of a firearm by licensee, club, or association. 18 U.S.C. 922 that I posted on Wednesday covers my situation (i.e. not renting, not buying ammo, and just shooting on their range).

March 28, 2025, 02:08 PM

229DAK

quote:
quote:
(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
...
(2) Exceptions.—Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

One would think target shooting is a lawful, sporting purpose.