SIGforum
Submarine used for tourist visits to Titanic wreckage goes missing in the Atlantic
June 21, 2023, 04:41 PM
CaptainMikeSubmarine used for tourist visits to Titanic wreckage goes missing in the Atlantic
Enough with the hatch nonsense, all of the deep diving submersibles I have worked with: NR1, Alvin, Johnson Sea Link 1 and 2, had hatches on top (the part that sticks out of the water) that were operable from the inside. The hatches are taper fit, think a cork in a bottle, the seal only gets tighter as depth increases but the hatches are fully openable from inside by the occupants at the surface, EPIRB's, dye packs, flotation devices, etc. deployable at the surface. This guy was just a moron. Nowhere have I seen addressed the dissimilar compression characteristics of dissimilar materials, carbon fiber tube, titanium end caps, god know what else. This is a major factor when operating at depth and would be my first stab at a point of failure for this design. My first command was the R/v Sea Diver which was the support ship when (long before my tenure) for the Johnson Sea Link when it became entangled in wreckage, resulting in 2 fatalities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...on_Sea_Link_accidentThe subs moved ahead in development, lots of improvements, including a functional rescue system. This was in the 1970's. This CEO clown obviously never read about the accident, though everyone in the research submersible community knows all about it. All the lessons learned from that and other accidents have been incorporated in all new deep submersible designs, except for this one. Fucking Huckster.
MOO means NO! Be the comet! June 21, 2023, 05:05 PM
kkinaquote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
For everyone who believes that there should be a way of opening the exit way from the inside, what would be capable of permitting that while also withstanding the enormous pressures at depth? Bolt heads on the inside? How would entrance be made from the outside if necessary? Two portals?
Actually I think it would be possible to design 2-way access on a single portal. An outer sealing plate and an inner sealing ring sandwiched between the outer plate and the hull.
The outer plate would be bolted from the outside; it attaches only to the inner ring. The ring is bolted from the inside; it attaches only to the hull. In an emergency, the crew could remove the inner bolts and detach the entire sealing unit from the inside.
2-Way Hatch by
kpkina, on Flickr
June 21, 2023, 05:06 PM
oddballquote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Nowhere have I seen addressed the dissimilar compression characteristics of dissimilar materials, carbon fiber tube, titanium end caps, god know what else. This is a major factor when operating at depth and would be my first stab at a point of failure for this design.
I alluded to this back a few posts, the astounding aspect to me was they used adhesive to actually glue the titanium and carbon fiber components together. And for my limited knowledge, carbon fiber has great tensile strength, but subpar in compression strength. And from what I understand, just a micro pinhole leak would be catastrophic at 10,000 ft below.
But yes, the more I hear about the CEO and his methods and business philosophy, the more I cringe.
"I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965
June 21, 2023, 05:08 PM
TMatsquote:
The founder of the company whose submersible became lost on a dive to view the wreckage of the Titanic, sparking a frantic, deep-sea rescue effort that has riveted people around the world, once declared he didn’t want to hire “50-year-old white guys” on his team even if they were seasoned submariners.
… Stockton Rush, CEO of OceanGate Expeditions, is aboard the submerged vessel along with billionaire explorer Hamish Harding, French explorer Paul-Henry Nargeolet, and British businessman Shahzada Dawood and his son, Suleman. Since the 22-foot craft lost contact with the surface early Sunday, critics have come forward to blast the company’s safety practices. But Rush was previously adamant that he values youth over experience when it comes to assembling his crews.
“When I started the business, one of the things you’ll find, there are other sub operators out there, but they typically have gentlemen who are ex-military sub-mariners, and they — you’ll see a whole bunch of 50-year-old white guys,” Rush told Teledyne Marine representatives before the expedition began. Teledyne Marine made the sonar systems and the navigation systems for the vessel.
“I wanted our team to be younger, to be inspirational,” he continued. “And I’m not going to inspire a 16-year-old to go pursue marine technology, but a 25-year-old who’s a sub pilot or a platform operator, one of our techs, can be inspirational. So we’ve really tried to get very intelligent, motivated, younger individuals involved because we’re doing things that are completely new.”
https://tinyurl.com/bdcn3ate
_______________________________________________________
despite them
June 21, 2023, 05:10 PM
6gunsquote:
Originally posted by kkina:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
For everyone who believes that there should be a way of opening the exit way from the inside, what would be capable of permitting that while also withstanding the enormous pressures at depth? Bolt heads on the inside? How would entrance be made from the outside if necessary? Two portals?
Actually I think it would be possible to design 2-way access on a single portal. An outer sealing plate and an inner sealing ring sandwiched between the outer plate and the hull.
The outer plate would be bolted from the outside; it attaches only to the inner ring. The ring is bolted from the inside. In an emergency, the crew could remove the inner bolts and detach the entire sealing unit from the inside.
2-Way Hatch by
kpkina, on Flickr
I believe this is what Fly-Sig was describing on the previous page, though with a different kind of release on the inside.
Makes sense.
SIGforum: For all your needs!
Imagine our influence if every gun owner in America was an NRA member! Click the box>>>
June 21, 2023, 05:12 PM
parabellumHow's that workin' out for him?
Even if he's not sued into oblivion (and I hope he is) just who do you think will pay to take a trip in his next ramshackle sub?
I would think he's done and it seems like justice to me.
June 21, 2023, 05:16 PM
kkinaquote:
I believe this is what Fly-Sig was describing on the previous page, though with a different kind of release on the inside.
Makes sense.
Similar, but not exactly the same. I stuck with bolts only, rather than an engineered interior release mechanism, for simplicity and robust design. Either way would work.
June 21, 2023, 05:18 PM
XinTXTo paraphrase Wayne Hale, that environment isn't inherently risky, but it is terribly unforgiving. One small mistake can have immediate and unrecoverable consequences.
Company I used to work for had loads of ROV's that operated at considerable depth. One of the first companies to really refine their ROV's. From time to time someone would start up a company thinking they could build and operate their own ROV at lower prices. But we'd learned a LOT of lessons over the years. So our availability was pretty much double what the competition was. Because the startups had yet to learn those lessons. You don't want to be learning those lessons with a bunch of people on board. The CEO of this company probably patted himself on the back for "thinking outside the box". Probably telling himself "no one thought of this before." But others probably had. But elected to stick with what was proven to work.
_______________________
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” Ayn Rand
“If we relinquish our rights because of fear, what is it exactly, then, we are fighting for?” Sen. Rand Paul
June 21, 2023, 05:18 PM
6gunskkina, I understand.
SIGforum: For all your needs!
Imagine our influence if every gun owner in America was an NRA member! Click the box>>>
June 21, 2023, 05:31 PM
kkina^^
June 21, 2023, 05:43 PM
HRKquote:
Originally posted by kkina:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
For everyone who believes that there should be a way of opening the exit way from the inside, what would be capable of permitting that while also withstanding the enormous pressures at depth? Bolt heads on the inside? How would entrance be made from the outside if necessary? Two portals?
Actually I think it would be possible to design 2-way access on a single portal. An outer sealing plate and an inner sealing ring sandwiched between the outer plate and the hull.
The outer plate would be bolted from the outside; it attaches only to the inner ring. The ring is bolted from the inside; it attaches only to the hull. In an emergency, the crew could remove the inner bolts and detach the entire sealing unit from the inside.
2-Way Hatch by
kpkina, on Flickr
Pretty good job using BIC CAD process
June 21, 2023, 05:47 PM
CaptainMikeAlvin (6500 meter rated depth) and other deep submersibles have been using taper fit hatches, easily operable from the inside (3 lug wheel engagement) since the 1960's, probably much earlier.
You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel.
Think of how a rifle bolt engages with a chamber, in this case with a taper, because the pressure is pushing from the outside in, rather than the inside out.
MOO means NO! Be the comet! June 21, 2023, 05:51 PM
kkinaquote:
Pretty good job using BIC CAD process
I actually started using a simple CAD app on my phone, but finally said screw it and grabbed a pad and pencil. Old school all the way!
June 21, 2023, 06:00 PM
kkinaquote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Alvin (6500 meter rated depth) and other deep submersibles have been using taper fit hatches, easily operable from the inside (3 lug wheel engagement) since the 1960's, probably much earlier.
You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel.
Think of how a rifle bolt engages with a chamber, in this case with a taper, because the pressure is pushing from the outside in, rather than the inside out.
I'm quite familiar with plug-type hatches for pressurized environments. I think it was Stockton Rush reinventing the wheel, though I'll give him the benefit of doubt that he had a specific reason for going with a simple bolt design. I'm just wondering why he didn't anticipate the need to open from the inside. The simple modification I drew is all that would be needed.
Actually, do we know that it isn't a tapered hatch, even though bolted?
June 21, 2023, 06:02 PM
parabellumCan we agree that the hatch is of no consequence in this matter?
Let's move on, please.
June 21, 2023, 06:04 PM
kkina^Agreed. I'm really doubting that the vessel ever made it to the surface, so the hatch doesn't matter.
June 21, 2023, 06:21 PM
P220 Smudgequote:
Originally posted by oddball:
And for my limited knowledge, carbon fiber has great tensile strength, but subpar in compression strength.
I also have very limited knowledge, but I did take a college composites course at the end of last year. It was taught by Boeing's head composites guy. We spent many hours learning about carbon fiber from their guy who oversees process and internal training for the company world-wide. What it does, how it works, what it doesn't do, etc. It has directional strength, essentially it is only strong in resisting forces in one direction. That is why it is weaved, and there are different types of weaves. Those weaves are layered so that every conceivable direction you can apply force from has that direction handled by a length of carbon fiber. How you layer them is critical. We watched a video about the 787 fuselage and how it is created from carbon fiber, and let's just say it was far more involved a process with wraps and layers laid in far more directions than just wrapped in around a tube form like fishing line on a reel. I watched that video and actually said "holy shit" out loud. So you have all those layers wrapped in one direction, great. What handles force applied from end-to-end? Nothing that I could see.
______________________________________________
Endeavoring to master the subtle art of the grapefruit spoon.
June 21, 2023, 06:28 PM
sigfreundThanks for the responses to my question.
► 6.0/94.0
To operate serious weapons in a serious manner. June 21, 2023, 06:29 PM
PASigOne thing I haven’t seen anyone discuss here is the fact that, even if they were to somehow grapple them and drag them to the surface with enough air left, what about the bends?
Wouldn’t they need to be brought to the surface slowly?
June 21, 2023, 06:32 PM
Mars_Attacksquote:
Originally posted by PASig:
One thing I haven’t seen anyone discuss here is the fact that, even if they were somehow grapple them and drag them to the surface with enough air left, what about the bends?
Wouldn’t they need to be brought to the surface slowly?
No, the pressure is a constant 1 atmosphere.
____________________________
Eeewwww, don't touch it!
Here, poke at it with this stick.