In the past I had good luck with LenCrafters, fitting lenses to some frame I already had in 1 day, and also ordering a pair of Oakley prescription sunglasses. The Oakley's had to be made at Oakley with Oakley lenses due to the frame design. I didn't expect that but it was fine with me back in 2012 and they have been great.

Anyway, I recently had to move to progressive lenses which is a big transition. It took 3 exams to get the Rx right - one at my company doc for Rx safety glasses, and two exams at LC. Company doc wasn't quite right, LC made it worse, then LC got it right on a free recheck.

So a couple weeks ago I went back to LC, picked a set of Oakley frames I liked, and the tech started adjusting them. She put various tool marks in them (temple area to get tension correct) so I asked her to be more careful and that I would not accept pre-damaged frames. I decided to get Oakley lenses too (not the store fitted LC ones) and she assured me that the lenses would be fitted to new frames at Oakley and the completed pair of glasses sent to the store (as previously with my sunglasses). I wasn't entirely sure about the frame selection so we put them "on hold" until I had time to return.

Last Monday evening I went back to finalize the deal and that tech wasn't available, so I worked with the store manager. I was trying on the same frames off the rack and some others, and mentioned the "on hold" frames. She didn't react much to that so we started adjusting a new pair and they were almost perfect. She asked to "try something" and bent up the nosepads ending up with something WAY off. Damn, now we have to start over. Another pair of the same frames from the rack to restart, and they were very close and only needed a little tweaking. She took a couple tries to get the alignment measurements "right" (iPad and frame jig), didn't understand Oakley's progressive lens options (had to call someone on the phone and wait), and it was clear she didn't know much about progressive lenses (where the progression starts relative to ocular center, etc.). I was about to give up and leave when another tech gave better answers, and then the manager finally got everything else measured with numbers that made sense. Oh well, it took time but I didn't really have another day to go back that week and spend more time - 2 hours already this visit.

So today I get the call to pick them up (earlier than expected). They fit with no adjustment, which I told them seemed odd for "new" frames straight from Oakley, but maybe they tweaked them to match the frames used for fitting. I got home and then noticed one of the lenses is loose, and the tool marks from the first pair they tried adjusting two weeks ago are there too!

I went back to the store, asked to see a manager and got the assistant. I made it clear I wanted someone to explain why I didn't get factory new frames with the lenses, why the tool marks look exactly like the ones I told them I said I wouldn't accept a couple weeks ago, and how they think this is acceptable in any way.

It is pretty clear to me that they swapped out my new frames for the damaged ones I said I wouldn't accept. It's possible the damaged ones were put back on the display rack after the "hold" period expired (explaining why they didn't simply go and get them when I went back to place the order), and no one noticed which ones we were working with. A swap out is the only thing that explains the consistency in tool marks, and the loose fit on one lens, because frame tolerances usually require fitting of the lenses to the exact frame (not just the same model).

The assistant manager insisted they didn't do anything except deliver them to me and Oakley must have messed up the lens sizing to the frame. Really? Then why are the tool marks the same as the pair I said I wouldn't accept? Why didn't the store have to make any adjustments after giving them to (they acted like they didn't even care). He tried but couldn't tighten the loose lens because the screw was already tight in the frame. He had no other answers to explain the inconsistencies.

So then I looked at the display rack and found the ones the manager messed up the nosepads on, and another brand new frame. I asked the assistant manager to have my new lenses put in the new frame. He tried, and claimed he couldn't because the screw was stripped and the manager must have done that when removing the dummy lenses when my order went to the lab for checking. That's funny, they fit like completely new unadjusted frames, not the ones used to finalize the order. I know because my nose is a little crooked and off center so the nosepieces are always uneven and the frame does not look centered on my nose when it's centered on my face. The new ones were centered on my nose.

So he says we can return or reorder, my choice. Or I can talk with the manager about options. I asked if the loose ones are safe to wear until a re-order shows up? Yes. OK then re-order with new frames from Oakley, and don't let anyone in the store touch them at all. I called back later to reconfirm the Rx and make a note that I want them exactly as they arrive from Oakley, no one is to touch them.

I can't prove anything and they are willing to fix the problem with a new order at no cost to me, or a full refund. All the evidence lines up to only one conclusion but they insist that didn't happen. And if they admit it they are admitting deliberate deception, fraud, lying to customer, or whatever legal terms apply. They could have said something like "oh, the new lab tech didn't understand the process and thought they were supposed to retrofit the lenses from the complete pair from Oakley into the store-fitted frames" or they thought they were doing me a favor to make sure everything was aligned and they would put the lenses back in the correct frames. But that would have required them to be creative with the story when I'm pretty sure they didn't expect to get caught and were glossy eyed at trying to explain the unexplainable.

So now there are emails to both LensCrafters corporate and Oakley corporate saying the story doesn't add up and no matter what really happened, they are falling way short of quality expectations and need to investigate this. The Oakley lenses do look very well made and finished (polished edges with nice edge break), and much better than store fitted ones which is what I was expecting, but they don't fit the frames I was given.

Yeah, long story. And I know Luxottica owns LensCrafters and Oakley, and just about everything else, and they are all overpriced. I could order the same thing from Target Optical (also Luxotica), or maybe an independent optical shop. Except independents are usually even more expensive and I've caught some of them lying too, and the banker's hours they keep don't work for me. I won't touch the places that offer cheap 2 for 1 deals (Eyeglass World and Visionworks).

Good luck with Lens Crafters. You might try putting in a call to Oakley direct and asking them if they have a Law Enforcement Rep near to you. A co worker of mine was an Oakley LE Rep and we often got them for 50% off.
This was some years ago, so I dont know if Oakley still has this program or not.

Costco Optical. High quality, reasonable cost.

Pearle Vision is another Luxottica company. A few years ago I ordered two pair of glasses from the local Pearle. The order was incorrect twice and it was clear the local "manager" was flat out lying. I wrote corporate, they responded but didn't follow up on any aspect. I will not do business with them ever again. No local accountability, no corporate responsibility for customer satisfaction.

I do business with a local company. EXCELLENT customer service and, between insurance and discounts I am in the same cost neighborhood as Pearle. Pediatric and Adult Vision Care in Wexford, PA is top notch.

I get great service and quality glasses at WalMart. It's really the only thing they do right.

A few years ago I tried Walmart, ended up just throwing the glasses away. Last year I decided to try Walmart again for a "backup" to my Verilux progressive glasses. I asked them if they had any upgraded lens and was told they now carry Nikon and Zeiss lens. I specified Zeiss, the price was about 250 below the cost of the Verilux and the quality is great.

Maybe I just got lucky but the next time I change prescriptions I will go back to Walmart and specify Zeiss lens again. The Verilux glasses now stay in the case as backup because I actually like the Walmart glasses better.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:

I get great service and quality glasses at WalMart. It's really the only thing they do right.

I showed my prescription to the optician at Walmart; the cost of the lenses (tri-focal) was close to DOUBLE Costco. Just lens. Walmart's frames are also more expensive than Costco, and certainly no better.

V-Tail nails it. Costco is the only place we go to for glasses. Good quality at a reasonable cost and great customer service.

Jim

This is an area where skimping on quality or service is gonna cost.

Using the "Jiffy Lubes" of the optical world is gonna cost. Lens Crafters, Vision World, Costco... ect are sub-optimal places to obtain a precision apparatus that you'll use upwards of 16+hrs a day.

I use an independent optician that gets it right the first time and every time without question. They have always steered me right in frame and lens selection each time. Yes, the cost is a bit higher. But not by much.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by El Cid 92:
This is an area where skimping on quality or service is gonna cost.

...

Yes, the cost is a bit higher. But not by much.

In general, I agree. I got my primary progressives from my local shop. They cost me a fortune... but they work great and I'm very happy.

I got my Transitions DriveWear (sun) glasses from Costco, for just over $200. They're pretty darn good, but they were unusable until I had my local optical place adjust them for me (which the guy at Costco didn't offer).

The price difference between Costco and my local optical shop is *hundreds* of dollars. For example, my local shop has no frames that are less than $200... Frames at Costco can cost as little at $40.

The last time I attempted to use LC was a nightmare. They botched the lenses 3 times by not getting the optical center correct. I finally gave up and went elseswhere

Thanks for the responses. My aunt recommended Costco optical but there isn't one close to me and I'm not a member, but it's worth considering. And I have been looking at and calling independent optomotrists/opthamologists but again, they only work weekdays mostly bankers hours.

AND NOW FOR THE REST OF THE STORY...

I called the LC manager and told her the story (she did the fitting and the order write up a week ago), that it doesn't add up and if there was some reasonable explanation I need to hear it because everything points to these frames not being new and not factory fitted with the lenses. Here is the story after a long wait on hold for her to check into it:

The order was incorrectly made for lenses ONLY from Oakley, so they arrived without frames and were installed in the frames at the store that were used for my adjustments and measurements. This means they put the "on hold" frames back on the rack just like I suspected. The store lab put them together and didn't catch the loose fit of the lens.

So then I told her I was assured multiple times by multiple employees that these were in fact new frames with factory fitted lenses, so I was lied to repeatedly. She said the others had assumed the "normal" situation of complete glasses from Oakley and didn't check into it enough to see what really happened, but she did and found the problem.

So we have a plausible explanation that replaces dishonesty with incompetence. Yay. I'm not sure if it's really true or not but I can't prove anything. She said the replacement order was made correctly for new frames with factory fitted lenses, they would arrive in a week or so, and no one at the store will touch them until I pick them up. I guess I can wait and see while I shop around for another place to buy from. After all this, I can still return the next pair for full refund within 30 days.

Oh and I called Oakley to see if it's possible to get progressive lenses without frames and they said yes it's possible. Meanwhile Oakley and LC corporate made initial responses to my complaints...

quote:

Originally posted by El Cid 92:
This is an area where skimping on quality or service is gonna cost.

Using the "Jiffy Lubes" of the optical world is gonna cost. Lens Crafters, Vision World, Costco... ect are sub-optimal places to obtain a precision apparatus that you'll use upwards of 16+hrs a day.

I use an independent optician that gets it right the first time and every time without question. They have always steered me right in frame and lens selection each time. Yes, the cost is a bit higher. But not by much.

Andrew

Absolutely agree. No point in buying high end rifle scopes, cameras, computer monitors or TVs when everything hitting your retina has to pass through inferior lenses.

quote:

Originally posted by El Cid 92:
This is an area where skimping on quality or service is gonna cost.

Using the "Jiffy Lubes" of the optical world is gonna cost. Lens Crafters, Vision World, Costco... ect are sub-optimal places

You're mixing apples and oranges, and lumping them all together when in fact there are some really big differences between these.

• Lens Crafters is a very expensive national chain and in my experience, not worth the cost. The locations that I have been in all have high overhead and the customers have to pay for this. Before I learned better, I used to get my glasses there, and I had many problems, including the pair of glasses that I put on and immediately thought I was totally losing my eyesight; the optician apparently did not know the difference between a plus sign and a minus sign in front of the number denoting the correction.
  
  
• Vision World? Yeah, I tried them once. My impression was total sleaze. I left the place with my prescription still in hand, no way I was going to buy glasses there.
  
  
• Costco is now my "standard" for everyday glasses. They work with care, the people at the locations I have been to are all well qualified, and the cost is very reasonable. I forget which organization did a test, it might have been Consumer Reports. They ordered glasses at a bunch of national chains and Costco was the only one that filled the prescriptions correctly in 100% of the test cases.

Interestingly, I went to a local independent place yesterday and explained my situation.

They marked the pupillary centers on my Rx Safety glasses for work, and the messed up Oakley's I just got Sunday.

On both sets the pupillary centers are no located right. Left is too high, right is too low, and on the safeties the left is too far outside. How two different shops can get it wrong I have no idea.

The safety shop just measured me with a "view master" thing and not with the frames on my face. LC did their "accufit thing" but I'm guessing the angle of my face and the angle of the iPad camera were such the photo wasn't taken "straight adhead" and the compound angles screwed things up. I remember iPhones and iPads have wide angle lenses to get a bigger field of view, at the expense of geometrical distortion.

The local place measures pupillary location by eye and marks it on the dummy lens in red pen when frames area fitted, then cut the lenses to those dimensions. Then with completed progressive glasses, they mark pupillary location on the lenses based on the laser marks on the lens and compare visually to your pupils. It's all visual.

So now my question is - what is the right way to determine pupillary location when fitting frames and for checking after the glasses are made?

What does Costco do? What do other independents do?

I am at loss to explain how the industry does not have a standard measurement method for something so critical to progressive lenses.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

So now my question is - what is the right way to determine pupillary location when fitting frames and for checking after the glasses are made?

What does Costco do? What do other independents do?

This might vary by location, but the Costco near me, the optician adjusts the frame that I have selected, then has me look at her straight on. She marks my pupil location on the dummy lens that is in the frame with a marking pen.

I wear lined tri-focals for my primary glasses, bi-focals for sunglasses (leaving out the intermediate segment). Having marked my pupil location, we then discuss adjusting the height of the line by a mm or so, to meet my needs. This is all done with human interaction and discussion, rather than take a picture of some sort and let a computer programmer's notion of a "proper fit" determine things. My opinion is that hands-on fitting by someone with years of experience beats the heck out of an automated process.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Costco Optical. High quality, reasonable cost.

This! Recently got a pair of bifocals, frames, auto tinting lenses, for $235.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

So now my question is - what is the right way to determine pupillary location when fitting frames and for checking after the glasses are made?

What does Costco do? What do other independents do?

This might vary by location, but the Costco near me, the optician adjusts the frame that I have selected, then has me look at her straight on. She marks my pupil location on the dummy lens that is in the frame with a marking pen.

I wear lined tri-focals for my primary glasses, bi-focals for sunglasses (leaving out the intermediate segment). Having marked my pupil location, we then discuss adjusting the height of the line by a mm or so, to meet my needs. This is all done with human interaction and discussion, rather than take a picture of some sort and let a computer programmer's notion of a "proper fit" determine things. My opinion is that hands-on fitting by someone with years of experience beats the heck out of an automated process.

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of real world experience I am looking for. The local independent shop does it this way and said all the other ways like LC's "Accufit" are just for show and marketing. My coworker said today that WalMart uses a ruler for measurements.

So I went back to LC today and asked them to mark up the pupillary centers on the "bad" order I am wearing, and they showed the same issue as the local independent shop found, right eye too low.

The manager redid the iPad photo measurement and got it wrong a couple times because she didn't have the jig centered on the frames. Then the guy that "lied" to me on Sunday got called over and helped out and came up with the same "wrong" measurements as my original order. Always right eye lower by a mm (or more). Then when I said it's still wrong he said he has being doing it for 1.5 years and not 1.5 months like the manager. So the manager is a newbie and not very good at it yet. And the guy also said tolerances on eye location are 3 mm by "optical standards". This cannot be true and he later admitted than he might have that wrong (+/- 0.3 mm is probably the manufacturing tolerance for the lens location in the frame.)

Then I started thinking about parallax issues. If the lens is 15 mm from my eye, and they take a photo at 150 mm away, if they are 10 mm offset from my eye centers, the location of my pupil in the frame will move 1/10 of that (15/150) or 1 mm.

To do this right, you would need to rest your chin and forehead on a fixture, like when you get an actual refractometer exam or retinal image, and they would adjust the camera height until it is dead on and centered. A hand held iPad may make a cool image with 0.1 mm "accurate" measurements all over it, but no one is ever going to get it perfectly straight and aligned with your eyes such that parallax is eliminated. And taking a photo with an LCD screen, you lose your depth perception as well. I know I can't take an iPhone or iPad photo without canting it some way, while a traditional camera view finder works fine.

Anyway, they will show the numbers to the lab manager and call me about adjusting the re-order of complete frames and lenses and agree on what to do. This is their last chance though.

I've been closely affiliated with LC since 1987. They have just literally beat the crap out of their employees and managers to the point that they don't care about service for the customer anymore. I've bought every pair of glasses since then from them. I get 50 to 75% off the total cost. Even at this they are still borderline overpriced. Its all the skill of the optician, find a good one and stick with them regardless of where they work. Maybe 10% of all opticians in chain stores are actually licensed opticians.

Holy cow! Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

I have a strong nearsided prescription and have worn glasses for about 59 years, from all sorts of places. I have never once had to return for a problem or error of any kind.

I tried Walmart last time for my varifocals. I bought the best lens they offered, and they are the easiest to scratch I have ever owned and they sure weren't cheap, cost a bit more then the equivalent from Lens Crafters.