So I get this call from a dealer I did business with twice. Well I don't like them. They screwed me twice. I was in a bad spot and bought a car for more than I should have paid, being somewhat desperate I didn't haggle(totally my fault). Well a couple years later we needed a bigger car so we took the car I paid too much for back to this dealer because I assumed(I know) we would get a better trade. We didn't, I ate $4k on that trade getting a bigger used vehicle. I decided no more business with them. Our last vehicle purchase we went elsewhere. So yesterday they call me and ask about the bigger car(which I still have and am getting ready to sell). So I called back figuring if they are calling they need business and will deal. I tell the salesman about my past dealings and he is positive we can work things out. We set an appointment for tonight. That got cancelled after I found another vehicle I liked and asked if they could do something if I bought 2 cars. They give me the no haggle spiel and I tell him save it, I was in sales, no listed price is final when quanitity is involved. Cancel the appt. So he comes back explaining the no haggle. I don't care. I give him my trade info to see what they will do unseen. Comes back low. Insultingly low. Especially after I told him they screwed me on a trade in the past. Appointment cancelled and asked him to remove my info from the system. Fool me once, fool me twice...

Now knowing how little they were offering on trade I consider the 2 used vehicles they were selling and the mark up on them. No haggle price my ass. It makes me sick how much they make screwing people over. They probably could have sold me both cars for $35k gave me what I wanted for my trade and still made a profit as well as rectified a perceived wrong. So the Nelson dealers of TN can pound sand.

I'm really not even hacked off. I don't need a new(er) car. I just can't believe after I explained my situation that they would bother continuing with an offer they knew would cost me additional deficit in trade(another $4k!). A simple sir, we cannot make a good offer in your vehicle considering the situation would have been better.

If you are cold calling me for business you better have a worthy deal dammit!

What gets me is the dealers that call, that I've never dealt with, apart from a TrueCar request 2 years ago.

The majority of car salespeople are the lowest of the low. There’s a couple of them in my family (not blood related). They try to defend the ‘profession’ then I ask them have you ever lied to a customer. They never answer, just silence. I couldn’t live like they do. I wouldn’t get one minute of sleep per night.

Best to not even deal with the lot lizards and don’t be in a hurry to buy a car. Take your time. Do research and deal only with internet sales.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
The majority of car salespeople are the lowest of the low. There’s a couple of them in my family (not blood related). They try to defend the ‘profession’ then I ask them have you ever lied to a customer. They never answer, just silence. I couldn’t live like they do. I wouldn’t get one minute of sleep per night.

Best to not even deal with the lot lizards and don’t be in a hurry to buy a car. Take your time. Do research and deal only with internet sales.

I sold new cars once for 8 months. If you think the salesman lie, you should see the lies of the customers. One time I had someone tell me they had very good credit. Spent 3 hours of my time, they test drove 5 different new vehicles, then was going to buy one and had a FICO of 452.

Another time, I had a customer that was going to buy a new Navigator, new model year, he was getting a good price compared to what they were selling for. He was going to come in the following day and I needed the sale (numbers) and the money. The following day was my only day off in 10 days and I cancelled plans I had with my GF. He was going to have me meet him there at 10am...….So I go there, after an hour I call him, he said he's running late and will be there in another hour, then 1 1/2 hours after that I call him. He tells me he just bought a new Navigator from another dealer for $50 less off of the total price. Heck, I would've given him a $100 out of my own pocket and not have my entire day off wasted/ruined.

Who do you think internet sales is? Someone who used to be a lot lizard. Most salesman are straight with you if you're straight with them. Of course they're going to try to hold price, but that's the nature of their job.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
The majority of car salespeople are the lowest of the low. There’s a couple of them in my family (not blood related). They try to defend the ‘profession’ then I ask them have you ever lied to a customer. They never answer, just silence. I couldn’t live like they do. I wouldn’t get one minute of sleep per night.

Best to not even deal with the lot lizards and don’t be in a hurry to buy a car. Take your time. Do research and deal only with internet sales.

I sold new cars once for 8 months. If you think the salesman lie, you should see the lies of the customers. One time I had someone tell me they had very good credit. Spent 3 hours of my time, they test drove 5 different new vehicles, then was going to buy one and had a FICO of 452.

Another time, I had a customer that was going to buy a new Navigator, new model year, he was getting a good price compared to what they were selling for. He was going to come in the following day and I needed the sale (numbers) and the money. The following day was my only day off in 10 days and I cancelled plans I had with my GF. He was going to have me meet him there at 10am...….So I go there, after an hour I call him, he said he's running late and will be there in another hour, then 1 1/2 hours after that I call him. He tells me he just bought a new Navigator from another dealer for $50 less off of the total price. Heck, I would've given him a $100 out of my own pocket and not have my entire day off wasted/ruined.

Who do you think internet sales is? Someone who used to be a lot lizard. Most salesman are straight with you if you're straight with them. Of course they're going to try to hold price, but that's the nature of their job.

If you actually believe that load of BS, I have a bridge for sale. Cheap.

No offense but if I was that car dealer I would try to get you to come in again. They got you twice. Why not go for a third. It doesn't sound like they scammed you just got you at your worst.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
The majority of car salespeople are the lowest of the low. There’s a couple of them in my family (not blood related). They try to defend the ‘profession’ then I ask them have you ever lied to a customer. They never answer, just silence. I couldn’t live like they do. I wouldn’t get one minute of sleep per night.

Best to not even deal with the lot lizards and don’t be in a hurry to buy a car. Take your time. Do research and deal only with internet sales.

I sold new cars once for 8 months. If you think the salesman lie, you should see the lies of the customers. One time I had someone tell me they had very good credit. Spent 3 hours of my time, they test drove 5 different new vehicles, then was going to buy one and had a FICO of 452.

Another time, I had a customer that was going to buy a new Navigator, new model year, he was getting a good price compared to what they were selling for. He was going to come in the following day and I needed the sale (numbers) and the money. The following day was my only day off in 10 days and I cancelled plans I had with my GF. He was going to have me meet him there at 10am...….So I go there, after an hour I call him, he said he's running late and will be there in another hour, then 1 1/2 hours after that I call him. He tells me he just bought a new Navigator from another dealer for $50 less off of the total price. Heck, I would've given him a $100 out of my own pocket and not have my entire day off wasted/ruined.

Who do you think internet sales is? Someone who used to be a lot lizard. Most salesman are straight with you if you're straight with them. Of course they're going to try to hold price, but that's the nature of their job.

If you actually believe that load of BS, I have a bridge for sale. Cheap.

Believe whatever you want to believe. I could care less. Every customer tells you they have perfect credit, every customer thinks their beat up trade in is worth top dollar in the retail NADA book, every customer wants to come in and test drive, then make a deal wherever they can to save a few dollars, no customer is ever $5k upside down on their trade in...….till you get the facts...…

I sold new cars for around 9 months, it royally sucked. But buyers will lie to you day and night too, usually right from the get go. "we're just browsing and not buying for another 6 months". It is what it is. It's a crappy industry. People should just pay MSRP. You don't barter in the grocery store or the clothing store do you? There isn't that much profit on a new car generally, especially when you consider the dealer has $20,000+ sitting there on the lot in a depreciating asset he has to keep insured and cleaned. New car dealers, the new car sales department makes around 10% of the entire income of the dealership. THINK ABOUT THAT for a minute. It's where they have the largest amount of capital invested (by far) and where they make the least return. Mechanic shop, body shop, parts department and used cars is where they make their money. Not sure what business/industry you're in, but if you had $20,000 in inventory and only made $600 profit on your $20,000 investment, could you pay all of the fixed business costs?

^^^^ you said it yourself, they aren’t making most of their money on new car sales so how would they only have the $600 in your scenario to keep the business running?

Buying a car is a huge pain in the ass and that is mostly because the salesmen in my opinion. You complain about customers lying and I’m sure a lot do but I think car salesmen reap what they sow.

Like any profession there are good salespeople and bad sales people. I don't begrudge a salesperson from attempting to maximize profits and of course people are going to try and get the best deal possible. Theres enough information readily available online that you can conduct a bit of research and then walk into a dealership knowing a fair price to pay for any new or used car. Knowledge is power and with information so easily accessible online there's no reason to pay more than you should for a car.

 
I used visit a salesman/buddy (fellow shooter) at the local Ford dealer. He told me they refer to customers in the lot fondling a model as "licking the paint".

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

New car dealers, the new car sales department makes around 10% of the entire income of the dealership. THINK ABOUT THAT for a minute. It's where they have the largest amount of capital invested (by far) and where they make the least return. Mechanic shop, body shop, parts department and used cars is where they make their money. Not sure what business/industry you're in, but if you had $20,000 in inventory and only made $600 profit on your $20,000 investment, could you pay all of the fixed business costs?

This is not the first time that somebody has complained about car dealers and you have jumped in to explain, with benefit of your experience in the field -- was it eight months? or nine months? You have made two different claims about your tenure in this thread, so I'm not sure which is true, if either.

You have given us the benefit of your financial analysis, explained why the owner has so much money invested for a measly ten percent return.

I have one question for you, and a simple one-word "yes" or "no" answer will be sufficient: Do you have any direct, personal, knowledge of anybody who was forced, against his will, to become the owner of a new car dealership?

4 words:

Retail Pricing Car Dealers

quote:

Originally posted by SR025:
^^^^ you said it yourself, they aren’t making most of their money on new car sales so how would they only have the $600 in your scenario to keep the business running?

Buying a car is a huge pain in the ass and that is mostly because the salesmen in my opinion. You complain about customers lying and I’m sure a lot do but I think car salesmen reap what they sow.

There's a lot of fail on both sides. Some salesman are good, a lot are bad. A lot of customers are bad too, some are good. The whole process is a pain in the ass for both sides.

In order to keep the parts department, body shop and mechanics shop busy, you have to sell new cars. The more new cars you sell, generally the busier the profitable departments become. Nobody is taking a Toyota to a chevy dealership to get worked on (for example). You have to sell a lot of volume to make money in new cars. They're also like a ticking time bomb, the longer they sit on the lot, the more costly they are to the dealer as they have to be kept clean and are typically financed (floor planned) with interest paid monthly. On most $20,000 new cars, there's about $600-800 in gross profit (minus salesmans commission, finance costs, keeping it clean costs, etc.)

For me, the first rule is to sell your trade car/truck/suv yourself. Craigslist and Marketplace are excellent ways to market your rig. Clean it up, put a coat of wax on it, shine the tires, and keep detailed service records. These little things bring top dollar from buyers. I recently sold a nice Mazda 3 with 50k for average retail to the first buyer that came by. That beat the trade price by 4k. Sure, it's a little work and you'll get a few tire kickers but I have always received close to retail on my used cars. We don't have sales tax in Montana so this is even more appealing.

Be aware of what a good price is on the rig your are buying. The internet holds a wealth of information. I recently bought a new Honda. I paid $500 over invoice. I felt that was a good deal. It was a new model that was in demand and I was very specific on color. The dealer had to find one and bring it into his lot for me. It took 45 days.

Consider Costco buyers service. I have never used them but other claim they save by using it.

Finally, a dealer is there to make money. They are not your buddy They will take your head off if your let them.....and smile all the way. Just like anyone selling high dollar items on a commission.

Just my opinion.
Mike

quote:

The whole process is a pain in the ass for both sides.

Yeah, maybe. But one side are professionals, getting paid for dealing with the pain in the ass, which surely must soften the sting somewhat. And as V-Tail’s post implied, nobody is holding a gun on anybody to make them sell cars for a living.

You’re gonna have a hard time winning any sympathy for car dealerships.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

New car dealers, the new car sales department makes around 10% of the entire income of the dealership. THINK ABOUT THAT for a minute. It's where they have the largest amount of capital invested (by far) and where they make the least return. Mechanic shop, body shop, parts department and used cars is where they make their money. Not sure what business/industry you're in, but if you had $20,000 in inventory and only made $600 profit on your $20,000 investment, could you pay all of the fixed business costs?

This is not the first time that somebody has complained about car dealers and you have jumped in to explain, with benefit of your experience in the field -- was it eight months? or nine months? You have made two different claims about your tenure in this thread, so I'm not sure which is true, if either.

You have given us the benefit of your financial analysis, explained why the owner has so much money invested for a measly ten percent return.

I have one question for you, and a simple one-word "yes" or "no" answer will be sufficient: Do you have any direct, personal, knowledge of anybody who was forced, against his will, to become the owner of a new car dealership?

No, they are not forced against their will. Many have owned them for decades when the car business was a different time, era, and profitability. If they own the land the dealership is on, outright because they've been in business a long time, it makes them a lot more profitable because generally car lots are on prime commercial land. Plenty of new car dealerships come and go out of business. Look at how many GM dealerships instantly were no longer a GM dealership right after the downturn in 2008. Dealerships nowadays are sort of like owning a subway franchise. With one location it's possible to make a decent return, but you're not getting rich (in terms of percentage of your investment). It also largely depends on the popularity of the make, 10 years ago buick dealerships sucked wind, now they sell lots of cars. A lot of manufacturers go through popularity phases. However you'll see that many dealership owners, own multiple locations and then they can make larger returns due to the laws of size, being able to shift employees and vehicles from one dealer to another etc.

As for my history. I've been in the car business for 1/2 of my life. I'm 42 years old. My father was in the car business and owned a small body shop/mechanics shop/ and had a car dealers license and had a few used cars for sale at a time and he specialized in classic vettes 1963-1982's but did a lot of late model stuff, he'd go to the auction buy late model wrecks and put them together. I worked for him from 11-17 or 18 years old everyday after school and on Saturdays, sanding cars, taping them, doing mechanical repairs/maintenance as I got older etc. Around 17/18 years old I went into business for myself buying wrecked/stolen recovery late model mustangs (during the fox body 1987-1993 craze) at auctions, putting them back together, and wholesaling them, mixed in with a few corvettes. I did this while going to college on the 8 year plan LOL. When I was 19 ish, my father decided to scale back to semi-retired mode and moved 2 hours North to Fort Pierce and about a year after that, coerced me to buy a used car lot and business up there, where I could do both. So I bought it and for a few years owned the used car lot where I bought a lot of cars from new car dealers, and the auction. I also became partners in another used car lot, after someone wanted my business and offered me an attractive price for the business (sans the cars), so I did that for a few years and got burned out on it. I graduated with my AA and the closest University was over an hour drive each way from Ft. Pierce. So I moved back to Fort Lauderdale around 1999 ish, went to FAU and worked at a marina as a dock attendant, then sr. dockhand 3- 12 hour days a week, but also worked for a Captain that owned a yacht management business as a mate on 50-75' yachts and was running small yachts for people in the marina (under 44', mostly Searays), I grew up with small boats since I was 5, but didn't see the marine industry as a career. After graduating FAU around 2001, with a BS in Finance, I got offers of $32-36k for jobs with an hour drive each way (Miami or Palm Beach), but was making almost $40k a year goofing off in the marine industry. SO I saw an ad for a new car dealer, got a job there selling new cars Lincoln Mercury in 2002, only made about $1800-2000 a month, and worked there around 8-9 months over 75 hours a week, the people I worked with were all good to me, but the job itself sucks, perhaps a little longer, when the Captain with the Yacht Management business called me needing a mate for a 2 week trip in the exumas on a newish 74' Sunseeker I worked on previously here and there, then said he could employ me 3 days a week, but doesn't have enough work for full time, but I could pick up work elsewhere. So I walked into the dealership and quit and never looked back. The Captain, then stopped his own business and went on to become Director of Operations for a couple of highly regarded yacht builders over the years, so I got business from him. Got my USCG 100 ton master in Feb 2004, I took the class about 6 months prior. Went full time on some mega yachts in the beginning (97', 160', 172'), decided that being anchored 3/4 mile from the island and not going on land for 3-4 days, wasn't my cup of tea, did full time on some mid sized yachts as Captain which gets boring, and decided to fully open my own yacht management business around 2005. Which has been very successful.

My younger brother is a new/used car salesman for a Ford dealer for the past 2 almost 3 years, and his girlfriend of 6 or 7 years, her dad is the General Manager of the dealership and partial owner. They own 5 dealerships +/- spread around Florida...….so I still hear from him what goes on, once in a while I stop in there and hang out for a couple of hours and play around on their computer looking at unique cars they have, the invoices etc, and BS with him in between his customers and phone calls.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:

quote:

The whole process is a pain in the ass for both sides.

Yeah, maybe. But one side are professionals, getting paid for dealing with the pain in the ass, which surely must soften the sting somewhat. And as V-Tail’s post implied, nobody is holding a gun on anybody to make them sell cars for a living.

You’re gonna have a hard time winning any sympathy for car dealerships.

This is true, but I'm a businessman who operates a business and knows all of the hidden costs of running a business, so I look at things from both sides of the coin.

Is MSRP really ripping someone off? Manufacturers put an MSRP to protect their small volume dealers so that they can stay in business. Look at SIG, they institute a price on each gun that dealers have to sell them for, so their small dealers can make a living and stay in business. Some people are more than happy to not haggle and pay MSRP, and others aren't happy unless they get the gun so cheap that the dealer makes nothing. Somewhere in the middle is a happy medium for both the buyer and the seller, which is determined by both parties. Car sales is capitalism at it's best. The buyer haggles his best price and the dealer tries to maintain whatever price is best for them.

As for trades. Should the dealership pay you as much as they can get the same vehicle wholesale for at the auction that is already detailed and serviced and that they simply have towed from the auction straight to their used car lot and put up for sale the same day? Your car might not even be a car that they'd even buy at an auction because it's not a fast seller. Or many times, your car might be too old for them to even sell at their dealership and they're going to take it to the auction and sell it as-is for whatever it brings.

Then there's plenty of people over $5,000 upside down on their trade. Then they complain about a higher interest rate on the new car, well you can't hide $5,000 in the new car price and have the LTV (Loan to Value) come out correct for them to get Prime financing. SO they have to pay a higher interest rate, but they have to have that new car......you know....the 3 year old one they have that's perfectly fine, isn't perfectly fine for them.

Most salesman get paid commission on the profit. So of course the salesman is going to try to hold some profit. An invoice deal and making $150 to spend 3-4 hours selling a car to you isn't exactly feeding their family. There are many people they spend 3 hours of their time with and make nothing. But yes, they choose to work as a salesman. Car salesman are like realtors......10% of them, make 90% of the money. But it's an easy job for someone to get into that got laid off in their career or whatever. So some take it as an intern job, or who knows.

I don't have any ill will against car dealers, nor do I have any sympathy for them, I just see it for what it is. Car sales is what it is, The nature of the beast.

If I have any ill will at all for any business, it's for Hospitals. You're forced to use their services if you're truly sick and you need an expert just to sort through the myriad of bills and over charges from 15 different people you don't even remember seeing half of.

The two wealthiest friends I have are both in the automotive sales arena...

One owns a dealership and the other owns an extended warranty business.

Both own private jets and have retired airline pilots fly them around...

Doesn’t sound like their just making ends meet (and I’m glad for them) just don’t tell me it’s a low margin business.

A car salesman... that actually explains a lot about some most of Jimmy's posts here.

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
A car salesman... that actually explains a lot about some most of Jimmy's posts here.

Such as what exactly? I could assume LOTS of things about you, considering you live in California and all.

I sold cars for 8 or 9 months at a car dealership in 2002. 17 years ago. Which tells what exactly? I also sold fuel at a fuel dock to boats prior to that. I now deal with yacht owners who don't try to save a nickel at the expense of other people, pay above and beyond their bill many times, and appreciate someone who does a great job.