FEDEX Delivered My Dan Wesson to Somebody Else

December 10, 2021, 02:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:

In fact if you’re in Virginia, you are required to report it to the police:

“§ 18.2-287.5. Reporting lost or stolen firearms; civil penalty.

Absolutely.

A. If a firearm is lost or stolen from a person who lawfully possessed it
Is this really applicable in this case? It appears that OP never "possessed it," as the firearm was never delivered to him.

Been a while since I did any entries but the criteria for entry into the GUN file was ....

quote:
5. Agencies must have documentation (electronic or hard copy) on file to support a gun entry.
Only the agency
1. holding the theft report and having primary jurisdiction over the place of actual theft,
2. possessing the recovered weapon,
3. maintaining documentation supporting a lost or missing weapon, or
4. maintaining documentation supporting a weapon believed to have been used in the
commission of a felony may make an NCIC entry.
The only exception is that any criminal justice agency or regional dispatch center may act as
holder of the record for another agency that has no telecommunications equipment. When such
an entry is made, the agency holding the record may place its own Originating Agency Identifier
(ORI) in the ORI Field only if there is a written agreement between the two agencies that
delineates the legal responsibility of the record. Additional information concerning these
responsibilities can be found in the Introduction of this manual.

Jurisdiction is usually the biggest issue in these cases. The actual entry now that they switched to Windows based systems is a snap is all the info is provided.

Thankfully it has been located.

December 10, 2021, 02:22 PM

rscalzo

Happened to a friend here in NH not long ago. A long gun shipped from a vendor. FedEx stated it was delivered to his home...but it wasn't.

A call to FedEx was little help. Having had this problem before due to the same address being in the next town over he contacted the local PD. Fortunately he's an FBI agent and they agreed to accompany him to that address. It was still where the driver left it.

He contacted FedEx who admitted that they are having issues getting decent drivers and they are reluctant to fire the ones they have.

Thankfully, my local driver is great.

December 10, 2021, 02:30 PM

sigfreund

quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo:
Who must report might be in question. Seems the shipper is the one to do it.

I was not aware of the Federal regulation and agree that they would have that obligation if they were advised of the loss and it was deemed that the loss was from their inventory. (I.e., is a gun still in their inventory once it has been shipped? If so, when does it stop being in their inventory in such a situation?)

The question I would have even then, though, is whether it would relieve the owner of the gun from the requirement of Virginia state statute. I don’t see anything in the statute to the effect of, “The possessor of a lost or stolen firearm is relieved from the requirement of this statute if they can assume that some other entity will make the proper notification to have the firearm entered into NCIC.”

December 10, 2021, 02:48 PM

bald1

Screw all this legal jousting thread drift. And yes I understand it has its place.

I'm simply more concerned that burnetma gets his Dan Wesson from FedEx!
This as I'm both a DW fanboy and a long ago escapee from upstate NY.

December 11, 2021, 09:59 AM

lyman

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by lyman:
call the Local Police, they may or may not enter it, (I called on a USPS lost gun last winter and the officer wanted me to wait a bit longer before filing a report,)

Per Virginia statute they are required to enter guns reported as lost or stolen:

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Added: In fact if you’re in Virginia, you are required to report it to the police:

“§ 18.2-287.5. Reporting lost or stolen firearms; civil penalty.
A. If a firearm is lost or stolen from a person who lawfully possessed it, then such person shall report the loss or theft to any local law-enforcement agency or the Department of State Police within 48 hours after such person discovers the loss or theft or is informed by a person with personal knowledge of the loss or theft. The law-enforcement agency shall enter such report information into the National Crime Information Center maintained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.” [Emphasis added.]

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/v...7/section18.2-287.5/

yep,

however, I am not going to argue the fact with the Officer or Detective I had on the phone,

I got a case number just in case, and he asked me to call him back in a week or 3 if I had heard anything,

in my case, as a dealer, I had the buyer having a cow, USPS customer service calling every stop it was scanned at, and the Mail Carrier checking his truck and stopping at the receiving dealer to double check (got an email from the driver , thought that was odd)

seems mentioning that it was a firearm, and that I would be filing a claim for $4000 made them a bit excited to find it,

it shook out of the system in about a week as was delivered, I called the Police and he tossed the paperwork, (never hit nics)

me having the the police case number covered my bases re that law

(this one was delivered to another dealer in VA, )

December 11, 2021, 10:36 AM

rscalzo

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo:
Who must report might be in question. Seems the shipper is the one to do it.

I was not aware of the Federal regulation and agree that they would have that obligation if they were advised of the loss and it was deemed that the loss was from their inventory. (I.e., is a gun still in their inventory once it has been shipped? If so, when does it stop being in their inventory in such a situation?)

The question I would have even then, though, is whether it would relieve the owner of the gun from the requirement of Virginia state statute. I don’t see anything in the statute to the effect of, “The possessor of a lost or stolen firearm is relieved from the requirement of this statute if they can assume that some other entity will make the proper notification to have the firearm entered into NCIC.”

I could see it going back and forth about who reports it. Downside is that FedEx would not have the necessary identifiers needed for a NCIS entry. So it's back to the shipper / FFL or owner. These days tracking is significantly better than years back when I had these issues so where the item was last seen is much easier to obtain.

I'd say it's a lot easier for the firearm owner to make a report being the most familiar with the item. It would also mean that who is notified in the case of a recovery.

December 11, 2021, 10:54 AM

lyman

quote:
Originally posted by burnetma:
Lyman,

I am in Charles City County. We share the same FEDEX hub.

has it shown up yet?

I had a FedEx delivery yesterday,
Express,

new driver, nice older guy,
we had a bit of a chat while standing out in the driveway,

even he was amazed by the crap the ground guys get away with,

December 16, 2021, 11:37 AM

bald1

Was this resolved?

December 16, 2021, 08:32 PM

burnetma

Sorry for the delay in my update.

Fortunately, I did not need to go through all of the legal hurdles, but I really appreciate all of the advice. It was helpful and enlightening.

FEDEX recovered my package and it was delivered to me on Friday. The driver practically threw the package at me and shoed me away when I offered to sign for the delivery. Apparently, no lesson learned here. Furthermore, FEDEX never formally admitted that they had "misplaced" it in the first place, but one of their security persons did call me to tell me personally when it would be delivered. He too never acknowledged the root cause of the issue.

I guess all is well that ends well, but it really will make me think twice before I return another firearm or trust FEDEX. No knock against CZ or DW, just the whole idea of relinquishing possession to a shipper.

December 17, 2021, 08:58 AM

sigfreund

I fully understand your anger and frustration, but I seriously ask why you believe avoiding FedEx will prevent something like this from ever happening again. All we have to do is follow the complaints here to realize that every other shipping company that relies on human beings to deliver packages sometimes has the same problems. As far as I know that includes all of them and when people are involved, mistakes will be made. I can also attest that none of the rest I’m familiar with will offer up any apologies, much less explanations, for their mistakes. And lest we forget, all of the big three, USPS, UPS, and FedEx actually do a pretty good job considering the millions of packages they handle without making any mistakes.

If, however, you are in a position to not use shipping companies for any of your activities at all in the future, such as having warranty work done on a firearm at a distant location, then I congratulate you on your good fortune. Most of us are not so lucky.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I am truly puzzled when something like this happens and the victim announces, “Never again!” Is it just Internet venting, or are there alternatives I’m not aware of?

December 17, 2021, 10:28 AM

Flash-LB

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I am truly puzzled when something like this happens and the victim announces, “Never again!” Is it just Internet venting, or are there alternatives I’m not aware of?

I just laugh when I read it. I see it all the time on gun boards and even on a car board I go on.

It seems that people think that somehow by boycotting a company they're going to get the company to change their ways.

The reality is that one person boycotting a company will have as much effect as an extra gallon of water going over Niagara Falls.

Oh, and since it's a rant thread, I have something coming FedEx that started in Utah, went to Las Vegas, then went to another city in Utah, then back to Las Vegas. The last movement was 7 days ago and it's evidently still stuck in Vegas.

December 17, 2021, 02:30 PM

jhe888

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
Is this really applicable in this case? It appears that OP never "possessed it," as the firearm was never delivered to him.

He clearly states it was his gun:

quote:
Originally posted by burnetma:
So, I sent my Dan Wesson ECO ....

It didn’t stop being his gun merely because it was out of his possession for a time and didn’t make it back to him as it should have. Even if the gun had been exchanged for another due to some warranted defect, it was his gun once the factory said it was. As for “possessed” in the language of the statute, that’s clearly to extend beyond ownership; if I am in lawful possession of a gun as a gunsmith, for example, even though I don’t own it, the burden of the statute falls on me. Further, could I claim that because the gun was stolen from my car when I wasn’t in it that I wasn’t in “possession” of it at the time and therefore I had no duty to report the theft? We know the answer to that.

And I would also argue that the intent of the law puts the burden on the OP in this case because no one else would know that the gun had been lost or stolen. Statutes don’t normally include language like “… in possession of or who owns a firearm that he knows was lost or stolen from the custody of a common carrier when no one else shared that knowledge and therefore no one else would be in a position to report the loss or theft ….” It’s impossible for the law to spell out every conceivable situation and therefore if the issue became a matter for a court, someone would be saying, “Yeah, he wasn’t in actual possession when the loss occurred, otherwise it wouldn’t have been lost. Most of the time guns are not stolen when someone is in actual possession of them either. But he knew about it, no one else did, and the intent of the law is obvious.”

At least all that is my opinion.

First off, I agree. He should report. After all, there is no harm in reporting, and it makes all the arguing about what the statute means by "lawfully possessed" irrelevant.

The real answer is to see whether some case has guidance about how the higher courts of the state interpret that phrase. But it is possible that there is no directly relevant case, in which case you look to see what other cases say about what "possessed" means in other statutes. The last line of argument is to argue from the bare language of the statute.

I will gladly argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin if it may benefit a client, but if you can make the argument moot by doing some simple act, doing that act is usually the better plan.

December 17, 2021, 10:33 PM

burnetma

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I am truly puzzled when something like this happens and the victim announces, “Never again!” Is it just Internet venting, or are there alternatives I’m not aware of?

Part of my comment was a vent, but I meant every word that I said and what I said Iwas that would think twice, which is clearly different than never again. By think twice, I meant: To consider the alternatives. There is most often an alternative. In my case, I could have taken the DW to a local gunsmith for repair and pay out of pocket, which I will likely have to do next time because the 5 year warranty will have expired. Really no big deal. I need to get to know the local smiths in my new town.

I could easily avoid shippers. Currently I do very little online shopping. Mostly ammo and an annual supply of horse care products. Everything else is purchased locally/regionally.

So, that explains my line of thought.

December 17, 2021, 11:17 PM

ensigmatic

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I am truly puzzled when something like this happens and the victim announces, “Never again!” Is it just Internet venting, or are there alternatives I’m not aware of?

He didn't say "never again," but that he'd think twice.

I have a pistol that had a couple issues. I could have sent it back to the manufacturer. And I would have if I'd had to. Instead I paid a local smith to fix them.

I regarded the $140 that cost me money well-spent to forgo the angst

December 18, 2021, 08:53 AM

sigfreund

I apologize for suggesting that your “think twice” was equivalent to “never again.” The latter comment was more of a general observation about the countless complaints I’ve read here about everything from poor restaurant service to really important matters than this specific incident.

I am not sure what “think twice” means in reference to something like using a shipping service if something needs to be shipped, but if it’s something like a broken gun there is still always the alternative of letting it stay broken rather than running the risk of having it get delayed or lost in shipping. And of course if we are among the few gun owners who have local access to a competent gunsmith capable of handling our particular work, that is another alternative.

I’m somewhat jaded, though, because although over the past 50+ years I have frequently had access to local gunsmiths, almost none has been capable of performing the work I requested in a competent manner. The notable exception about competence was the work I’ve had done by Grayguns, but that required trusting my gun to a shipper as they are definitely not local to me.

Your explanation that you can get by without relying on shipping services was a useful reminder to me that not all of us must deal with the same circumstances, so thanks for taking time for the explanation.

December 18, 2021, 09:36 AM

ensigmatic

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I’m somewhat jaded, though, because although over the past 50+ years I have frequently had access to local gunsmiths, almost none has been capable of performing the work I requested in a competent manner.

That would certainly make a difference. Then again: How many times have I seen people return their firearms to a manufacturer to address problems and have them come back with the problems remaining?

Luckily, for me, I'm blessed with having not less then three competent, dependable gunsmiths within reasonable driving distance. Sadly: Two of them are older than me and probably won't be doing smithing very much longer

December 18, 2021, 09:55 AM

sigfreund

quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
How many times have I seen people return their firearms to a manufacturer to address problems and have them come back with the problems remaining?

Yes, there is that, too.

Incompetent gunsmiths aren’t limited to the guy in the back room of the pawn shop next to the “adult” bookstore. I had a very expensive experience with a manufacturer that had a top tier reputation and ended up just getting rid of the rifle because I wasn’t satisfied with either the service or the results. One option the factory has, though, that the local shop usually doesn’t is to just replace the problematic parts or even the entire gun. But that’s why I long ago learned to do as much work as possible on my own rather than relying on someone else.

December 18, 2021, 10:48 AM

m1009

Well, it’s pretty serious when a shipping company starts failing to deliver your items accurately, and then are nearly impossible to reach and don’t seem to care that it was their mistake, or try to rectify it unless, as on this case, a firearm, which would bring law enforcement into it.
Boycotting them can hurt them if everybody did it, as they would then lose money, as no shipments.
Bad thing is, if they are already hurting due to being shorthanded, and they don’t seem to worry about all the complaints now, not sure what a good outcome would be.
For us, we try to use them as rarely as possible, but sellers still use them, so we are at the mercy of those shipments, especially if no choices offered on the carrier.
We’ve had nothing but problems with fed ex thes last two years, and it doesn’t seem like it’s improving. Can’t even reach a higher up when complaining, phone calls are met with fake apologies, or wrong info each call on a delayed or lost shipment. Our ‘lost’. (Prob stolen) shipment was reimbursed to us by the seller when that happened, but I would have preferred the item itself.
At least in our area, UPS is still fairly reliable, and their tracking is easy to follow and they update quickly. Fed ex tracking sucks.

I might consider sending the corporate office a letter detailing the troubles when it concerns shipments being delivered to the wrong address like this. But again, local hubs need to step up to the plate and see if they can hire better qualified and honest drivers. Maybe an increase in pay, or better benefit. Just my humble opinion.