I've been taking our cars to a shop in our area that has been around for three generations. They do excellent work and have always come in below the dealership. I found out why yesterday. We had an issue with the differential and it needed a new seal. The book or some similar nonsense said it would take four hours of work. He told me it wouldn't and quoted me a price about 1/2 the dealership.

I just got a call from him, guess what, he was right and it cost me 1/2 what the dealer wanted.

What is this book that dealers use to falsely price out repairs based upon how long it will take? This seems like nothing more than a lie to their customers!

I remember the Dealership I worked at Clutch replacement the "Book Rate" was like 8 or 10 hours.

The Techs could do the job in about 3 hours because of experience and having all the right tools. Techs getting paid for 20 to 25 hours in a 10 hour day was very common.

I took a friends car in recently for a recall and a VERY overpriced ($250) Oil Change. Service Writer tried to upsell me a Radiator and Timing Cover Reseal.
They wanted almost $5,000 for the 2 jobs. Under a $1,000 in Parts and the rest was Labor. But the good news was he could have the work done by the end of the day, it was already 1PM. When I questioned him about a $4,000 Labor bill for 4 or maybe 5 hours of work, he just mentioned how he had already given me $1,000 off !!

I don't know all the logic behind it, but yes there is 'book time'
I assume it's a reasonable expected time to execute the repair, with no rush, shortcuts etc.

I remember Trailblazer water pumps were gravy $ when I worked for a Chevrolet dealer ( I was not a shop tech )
A Couple of our heavy line guys could do them in about 45 minutes & I think 'book time' on them was something like 2 hrs.

The service department at the stealer is a MASSIVE area of revenue for them. Ripping people off is part of the “game”. I don’t have ANY work done at the stealer unless it’s some sort of TSB or recall from the factory. Fuck em. I keep my receipts.

They don't call 'em Stealerships for nothing!

quote:

Originally posted by TomV:
I took a friends car in recently for a recall and a VERY overpriced ($250) Oil Change. Service Writer tried to upsell me a Radiator and Timing Cover Reseal. They wanted almost $5,000 for the 2 jobs.

The Lovely Girlfriend took her car in recently for the a service call, and asked while she was there about the next recommended services. One task led to another, and they ended up quoting her (verbally) about $2500 for the tasks. (Oil and filter change, engine air filter change, cabin air filter change, etc.)

"NUTS!" I said. "Have them print you an itemized list, and we'll take care of 2/3 to 3/4 of it ourselves."
A hundred fifty to replace an air filter? No stinkin' way. Grrrrr.

The dealer I visit occasionally has really boosted its shop rate lately, and since coming under new ownership they're heavy on the upsell. "Homey don't play dat." I'm glad that one of ours is old enough that I can do most of the necessary work on it, one I can do some of the work on, and another I thankfully haven't needed any work done on.

Back on topic: P250UA5 is right on the concept of "book time." And Prefontaine is right about the service department being the money maker for dealerships. I even had a sales guy tell me one time, "we can make killer deals on the purchase, because we'll get it back on the service."

I had i explained in the past like this:

You take the car in and "the Book" says the task should be 8 hours. When the job takes 4 hours, you feel like you got ripped off, right?

But... lets say that 8 hour job actually takes 12 hours because of corroded nuts n bolts and other things which age can induce. The mechanic still charges you 8 hours even though the job required a day and a half.

This is an industry standard (might be something along the lines of consumer protection too.

Imagine the mechanic / dealership guesstimates the job will take 4 hours (new car, low miles, garage kept, etc) and quotes you 4 hours of labor cost but then, because of problems, your bill comes in at 12 hours of labor.

I suspect that is when the fight will start.

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
I had i explained in the past like this:

You take the car in and "the Book" says the task should be 8 hours. When the job takes 4 hours, you feel like you got ripped off, right?

But... lets say that 8 hour job actually takes 12 hours because of corroded nuts n bolts and other things which age can induce. The mechanic still charges you 8 hours even though the job required a day and a half.

This is an industry standard (might be something along the lines of consumer protection too.

Imagine the mechanic / dealership guesstimates the job will take 4 hours (new car, low miles, garage kept, etc) and quotes you 4 hours of labor cost but then, because of problems, your bill comes in at 12 hours of labor.

I suspect that is when the fight will start.

This.

It's an industry standard average time. Yes it allows an experienced mechanic to turn more hours than an inexperienced one, but that's the benefit of years of experience and thousands of dollars in specialized tools that most of those guys have to pay for on their own. You could take it to a less experienced guy, and he could charge to the same to spend longer fixing your car...I don't see how that's better for you or him.

It's not just dealerships, either. Lots of independent shops work off of book rate. Others don't and can sometimes undercut the pricing of a book rate place. But that means they have to look at each and every car and make a guess at how long it's going to take them to do the job. Sometimes that means eating the cost of situations like what LS1 GTO described above if they underestimate the time it's going to take when they quote the job, other times they will pass those costs on to the customer with surprise extra fees. And sometimes they'll have to charge more for a job that has extra complications or they aren't equipped or experienced to do.

It's not ripping people off, it's just a different approach to quoting and how they do business. If you've found a shop that does good work and is willing to independently quote every job, then I'd stick with them. "The book" is just an industry standard way for a service manager (who may never see your vehicle) to quote jobs without having to take each one on a case by case basis.

Also understand that is what tools and experience pays off. I always quote book time when someone comes in for or calls for a quote on a job. Understand that I am in OH which equals rustbelt. A two hour job can turn into six with one snap of a bolt. I explain to the customer that if the takes me half of the time then that is what I bill. When something breaks or snaps off that also will be billed for the actual time and supplies that I need. You are correct in that most dealerships try to upsell and take advantage of the customer. Also have seen it on the independent side also. Have seen it extend into about any of the service based industries.

Took my wife's '22 Pathfinder in for an oil change with 20k miles. The list of additional "suggested maintenance" was an additional $300 (air filter, brake fluid exchange, "ethanol defender", and "oil treatment." Needless to say, I had to pass on those. The first two, maybe, but the second two are ridiculous. They'll get you where they can for sure, but I take it to them because they do do a thorough inspection, then I can pick and choose what actually needs attention.

My drivers side door handle broke. The part was two hundred dollars. You tube repair videos were 15 minutes long. I called the dealer and they quoted me 90 minutes labor. I am not that handy, however it took me all of 10 minutes.

quote:

Originally posted by Spudgun:
My drivers side door handle broke. The part was two hundred dollars. You tube repair videos were 15 minutes long. I called the dealer and they quoted me 90 minutes labor. I am not that handy, however it took me all of 10 minutes.

Yeah but, they have to drive it into the service bay, someone needs to order the part(s), then someone needs to take those to the service bay, the mechanic needs to work on it, then someone needs to drive the car out to you, someone else then needs to prepare the bill and then someone else needs to collect the money. This doesn't include the HUGE overhead or insurance costs.

They are called "flat rate books" been in use since the late 20's.



.

While we’re at it, let’s talk about the parts department and pricing.

Many dealers now have an E-commerce presence where the customer looks at the same electronic parts catalogs I used when I was in the business.

Customer sees the Internet pricing and thinks to himself “Wow, I can get that for X and the dealer quoted me XY for that. They’re ripping me off.”

Don’t forget to factor in the E-commerce site charging for shipping and handling on each order. When I was in GM dealerships the parts were shipped to us (with exception for VIP Orders) with no shipping charge from the manufacturers parts warehouse whether it be a mile down the road or across the country. You come to my counter you get it for the quoted price and no S&H up charge which many times makes that part close or higher than the local dealer. And if you were a regular customer I was more willing to cut a break on prices for you vs. the “I buy all my parts here” guy that comes in once every five years or so.

Also, when you would come to the counter or phone in you were getting my years of experience (47) to get you the right part the first time, I had to be paid for my experience, something you’re not getting when you look up your own parts.

One example, door handles both inside and outside and door locks. GM in their “wisdom” made the plastic and in some cases metal clips that attached the actuating rods not a replaceable item, to get the clip that broke you had to buy the assembly. Good parts people figured out what would work in place of those clips, instead of buying a hundred dollar part you could buy a six dollar clip from a different vehicle.

Another case in particular, not GM but Jeep. Seems that in many cases the gear shift quadrant indicator light bulb is not listed in the parts catalog, only the quadrant assembly. Hundred dollars plus for our 2012 Liberty. Well guess what, there IS a bulb in there, a replaceable one too. Few dollar bulb’s a lot cheaper than a hundred dollar quadrant assembly. Again, an experienced counterman will probably know that, if you actually called one of the E-commerce dealer I’ll bet you get slam dunked for the assembly and not the bulb.

Also, parts availability. If something is on back order or a discontinued item (happens a lot even with late model vehicles) I was the guy that would get on the parts locator linked to other dealers around town, the state or the country. Guys and ladies that have been in the business have a lot of contacts at other dealers around the country even if we have never actually met face to face. You would be surprised how many times that became handy to get that part. During the time I was in the business I probably pulled parts out of every state west of the Mississippi and a good chunk of the east coast.

Not saying dealers are perfect, over those years I’ve worked with some half assed techs and parts people and some excellent ones.

I brought this up awhile ago when I did an install for my brother that Lexus quoted him at 4 hours of labor.
Wanted to charge double the time needed and $200 labor rate. Wowzers

I having never done it before did it and 2 other things in under 2 hours.
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/1080076415/p/1

One other thing about your local dealer, warranty of a defective replacement part. From GM’s website:
FREQUENTLY ASKED WARRANTY QUESTIONS
Where can I get my warranty honored if my part (e.g., battery) has gone bad?
Warranties are honored at the retailer/ location/ online retailer from which you purchased the part.
Can I still process a warranty claim if I no longer have my receipt?
Warranty claims cannot be processed without proof-of-purchase paperwork.
How can I get my warranty reimbursed if the retailer/ location/ online retailer I purchased my part (e.g., battery) is no longer open?
First, verify your part is within the warranty period using your purchaser’s receipt. You will need to purchase a replacement part and contact the Customer Support Center. Ensure you have receipts for the original purchase and the replacement on hand for the claim. If approved, the reimbursement will cover the lower cost of the two parts. Purchase a replacement part here.

Your E-commerce purchase has to be handled through the selling dealer, not “any” as used to be. So besides several days transit time and them sitting on the claim you might be waiting a couple of weeks or so for that replacement to arrive, again you will pay shipping both ways. It used to be very rarely a new out of the box replacement was bad, it became more common towards the end of my time in dealerships.

On the supporting document, if I sold it I could usually find it in my records. Is that E-commerce dealer’s order taker going to look for a copy of your document? Probably not. And truthfully how many of us hold receipts for warranty periods?

So, another thing to consider.

A friend was a Mr. Goodwrench when the Pontiac Fiero was out. He was the new guy so they stuck him with all the engine replacements. He got so good at it he could do it in way less than half the time charged. He loved it.
I could be in a bind and call him, he would give me tips you never see in a Chiltons or Haynes book. Worst case he would come over and fix it for me. I rewarded him nicely!

Everything has an "SRT" Standard Repair Time.
There are two SRT times though, customer pay and warranty.
Warranty time is much less and can be tough to beat most times.
The shop I'm at took a $250,000 hit last year on warranty labor overages.
A lot of my customer pay jobs that I make good time on evens out with the time over on warranty jobs, I'm generally in the 100% productive and 90% efficient range.

I'm hourly and refuse to work in a flat rate shop.
Flat rate shops have the worst practices.

For personal side jobs I don't quote book time and just give an amount based on book time, saves the whole "you said 4 hours" later on.

Or in the case of the older Korean lady next door I quoted her $450 parts and labor to do the front and rear brake pads and rotors.

quote:

Originally posted by TomV:
I remember the Dealership I worked at Clutch replacement the "Book Rate" was like 8 or 10 hours.

The Techs could do the job in about 3 hours because of experience and having all the right tools. Techs getting paid for 20 to 25 hours in a 10 hour day was very common.

My Dad is retired autobody and it used to be the same way. In autobody, most of their clients are car accidents and since insurance is required by law most of their clients have insurance paying part of the bill. I don't say it often, but one of the benefits of insurance is they have the leverage to change industry that individual consumer's can't.

On the mechanical side, the only area of big leverage is OEM warranties and OEM extended warranties. From what I've seen, there is a pretty big delta between the hours the OEM pays a dealership service center vs the hours a consumer off the streets pays a dealership service center for the exact same work.

From a consumer standpoint, there would be a lot less animosity towards dealership service departments if we were billed the same hours for the same job that the OEM pays for warranty. Some of us might even stop calling them stealerships.

The way I was explained it from a couple tech friends of mine was that they basically put a tech in room with all the tools to do a job and they do it piece by piece by the book and average how long it takes.. (I'm sure there's more to it, but simply put it's something like this)

Now some techs get specialized tools that make things easier or maybe they learn a quicker way to kind of cut corners while still performing the task needed or maybe they just don't BS around and bust their butt to get things done faster... Whatever the reason is should that person that worked harder or smarter be penalized for doing so?

I worked in towing for a long time and towing semis or larger items such as motorhomes were always based on an hourly port to port charge. It took me a long time to convince my boss that is really a conflict of interest between you and your customer because I could send driver A and it would take 2 hours to do a job and send driver B and it take 3 hours to do the exact same job. There was nothing wrong with driver B he was just a little older than driver A so he didn't do things as fast. Should that customer pay a different price because we sent a slower or faster driver? I don't think so. We ended up just coming up with a rough idea of how long a job should take and multiplied it by the hourly rate and gave it to the customer. Sometimes we were a little low, sometimes we were over, but overall it all averaged out and the customer always knew ahead of time what they were going to be charged instead of it being a surprise at the end of the tow.