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Originally posted by Sailor1911:

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by Sailor1911:

Must have come from an Apache!

Apaches fired arrows at a Comanche? Cool!

Thought you would appreciate that one! ;-)

Many (most?) Piper models have names that are associated with American Indians. For extra point, list as many as you can.

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Many (most?) Piper models have names that are associated with American Indians. For extra point, list as many as you can

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Better not advertise that. SJW material. No more Fighting Sioux. North Dakota is now the Fighting Hawks. No more Chief Illiniwek.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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I'll bow to your superior knowledge.

I don’t know why you want to be such smartass, but several posters have given you plenty of explanation as to why it’s not really likely that it could have happened they way it Has been described.

But don’t take my vast knowledge for it, or that of anybody else posting. Go Google it yourself, apply the math you claim you’re good at, and you’ll figure it out for yourself.

When any of the armchair experts have actually looked at the evidence (as I have), I'll take their assertions a bit more seriously.

Standing on the roof of a 30 or 40 foot high hangar, at an airport with activity and surveillance cameras? That's kind of far-fectched. Borderline ridiculous. If that makes me a smart-ass, so be it.

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That's kind of far-fectched.

So Is two gunshots, fired from a distance, striking in the exact same location, with enough velocity to penetrate a steel roof, an airplane wing, and it’s fuel tank in a downward trajectory.

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Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

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Many (most?) Piper models have names that are associated with American Indians. For extra point, list as many as you can

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Better not advertise that. SJW material.

New model originally scheduded to be released in 2020, has crashed on every test flight, the "Elizabeth Warren."

NOTE: It's my thread, so I think I'm allowed to say political stuff. Maybe not.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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That's kind of far-fectched.

So Is two gunshots, fired from a distance, striking in the exact same location, with enough velocity to penetrate a steel roof, an airplane wing, and it’s fuel tank in a downward trajectory.

I'm sure that from 1,000 miles away (actually 1,019 per Google Maps), you have much more knowledge about this than the people who have actually seen it.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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That's kind of far-fectched.

So Is two gunshots, fired from a distance, striking in the exact same location, with enough velocity to penetrate a steel roof, an airplane wing, and it’s fuel tank in a downward trajectory.

Actually not.

I know a little about ballistics and "bullets" fired from the air. (OK, so really, big bullets...and tossing full cans of soda and other things from an aircraft at 8000 feet).

In an arcing trajectory, there is still sufficient velocity to penetrate tin or aluminum metal roofing.

Those roof panels are typically about .018 inches in thickness and "stable" so little flex.

A 9mm would need about 300 ft lbs energy to punch through 26 gauge steel roof. (less if aluminum) and the the numbers skew with 115-147 gr slugs.

DSgrouse is pretty close with his numbers, all things considered.

And two rounds from a MAC, UZI, several of the "altered" pistols that seem prevalent among certain demographic is not a far stretch by any means.

Or maybe some old guy with a bad hip and bored out of his ever lovin' mind and a vendetta with the drive through, climbed up there and popped two caps in a hanger to have something to post about on the interwebs.


Maybe...

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in an arcing trajectory, there is still sufficient velocity to penetrate tin or aluminum metal roofing

That doesn’t sound as if it was an arcing trajectory as the holes in the plane were described as directly beneath the holes in the roof.

But assume your theory is correct. After penetrating the roof, they would still have enough energy to go to a wing tip and a fuel tank? Perhaps later I can post photos of that 9 mm through the refrigerator I was telling you about, where it didn’t have enough force upon exiting to barely indent the gypsum board

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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I'll bow to your superior knowledge.

I don’t know why you want to be such smartass, but several posters have given you plenty of explanation as to why it’s not really likely that it could have happened they way it Has been described.

But don’t take my vast knowledge for it, or that of anybody else posting. Go Google it yourself, apply the math you claim you’re good at, and you’ll figure it out for yourself.

Penetrating a sheet metal roof and then one (and only one) layer of aluminum is very little penetration. Remember one slug was found inside the wing of the Cessna. Made it in, not through.

That sounds like a nearly spent round.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
Many (most?) Piper models have names that are associated with American Indians. For extra point, list as many as you can.

Off the top of my head from the time I was a lowly lineman in Danbury, CT: Apache, Aztec, Dakota, Seneca, Comanche, Cherokee and Navajo. Indian related model names: Warrior, Archer, and Chieftain. Non-Indian model names: Cub, Super Cub, Malibu, and my personal favorite, Aerostar.

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Remember one slug was found inside the wing of the Cessna. Made it in, not through

Through the wing and through the fuel tank inside the wing. The roof would’ve knocked out most of It’s Energy, unless it was fired through the roof

I can show you photos of this refrigerator where the bullet had enough energy to penetrate the rear metal, but not enough to go into the drywall. And I suspect the metal roof on that building is heavier than the rear panel on this refrigerator.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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That's kind of far-fectched.

So Is two gunshots, fired from a distance, striking in the exact same location, with enough velocity to penetrate a steel roof, an airplane wing, and it’s fuel tank in a downward trajectory.

We have no idea how many shots were actually fired. We know that two hit the hangar.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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in an arcing trajectory, there is still sufficient velocity to penetrate tin or aluminum metal roofing

That doesn’t sound as if it was an arcing trajectory as the holes in the plane were described as directly beneath the holes in the roof.

"Described as directly below?" I have no idea where you're getting that (mis)information from; I described it as maybe a ten or fifteen degree offset from vertical. Yup, that's what I said, right here in this very thread. I bet if you wanted to, you could read it and see for yourself.

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Originally posted by trapper189:

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
Many (most?) Piper models have names that are associated with American Indians. For extra point, list as many as you can.

Off the top of my head from the time I was a lowly lineman in Danbury, CT: Apache, Aztec, Dakota, Seneca, Comanche, Cherokee and Navajo. Indian related model names: Warrior, Archer, and Chieftain. Non-Indian model names: Cub, Super Cub, Malibu, and my personal favorite, Aerostar.

Lineman ain't "lowly!" When arriving at an unfamiliar airport, these are the guys I depend on for guidance.

Add Cheyenne and Seminole to the list.

Let's see, in the above, Malibu is actually an indian tribe. Cub is sort of Indian-related. Aerostar was not really Piper, it was designed by Ted Smith, who earlier designed the great Commander series, Piper bought the Aerostar line, they did not design it.

Ted Smith airplanes: I was flying a Commander 520 on April 14, 1974, from Chicago Midway to Valparaiso IN. There was a really pretty lady passenger sitting in the copilot seat. Way out of my class, but I worked up the nerve to stammeringly ask her if she would like to have dinner with me that evening. Last month was our 40th wedding anniversary.

Then there was the memorable flight in another Ted Smith airplane, an Aerostar. Kind of ratty, it had been used running night freight. Somebody in Arkansas bought it, and I was contracted for the ferry flight from the Tampa FL area, to Arkansas. A careful pre-flight inspection, the airplane was ugly, but everything worked. Until we took off. No sooner were had we climbed into the cloud layer with zero visibility, than we lost all directional instruments. All of them. Which way is north? Who knows? "Interesting" flight. I prefer boring.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Remember one slug was found inside the wing of the Cessna. Made it in, not through

Through the wing and through the fuel tank inside the wing. The roof would’ve knocked out most of It’s Energy, unless it was fired through the roof

I can show you photos of this refrigerator where the bullet had enough energy to penetrate the rear metal, but not enough to go into the drywall. And I suspect the metal roof on that building is heavier than the rear panel on this refrigerator.

That refrigerator panel is more than likely made of steel, and the roof panel is more than likely made of aluminum.

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Remember one slug was found inside the wing of the Cessna. Made it in, not through

Through the wing and through the fuel tank inside the wing. The roof would’ve knocked out most of It’s Energy, unless it was fired through the roof

I can show you photos of this refrigerator where the bullet had enough energy to penetrate the rear metal, but not enough to go into the drywall. And I suspect the metal roof on that building is heavier than the rear panel on this refrigerator.

That refrigerator panel is more than likely made of steel, and the roof panel is more than likely made of aluminum.

I don't know for sure. There's a new hangar going up right behind mine. I'll take a look at one of the panels before it goes up on the roof. Whatever it is, it's pretty thin, so even if it's steel it would not put up a lot of resistance to a bullet.

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:

Or maybe some old guy with a bad hip and bored out of his ever lovin' mind and a vendetta with the drive through, climbed up there and popped two caps in a hanger to have something to post about on the interwebs.

Maybe...

Ya got me, dude. I just can't seem to get away with anything when the Monkey is on the job.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

That doesn’t sound as if it was an arcing trajectory as the holes in the plane were described as directly beneath the holes in the roof.

Tell ya what. Saturday, July 13, there's a pancake breakfast at the airport. Bacon, too. 8:00 am to 11:00 am. Why don't you come, have some pancakes, and take a look for yourself at the hangar roof. We'll have "show and tell."

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Really? I'm not familiar with any airplanes that have a roll-down window, like a car.

Used to rent a American Trainer at ERAU in the 70's. The rollback canopy came close.

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Originally posted by rscalzo:

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Really? I'm not familiar with any airplanes that have a roll-down window, like a car.

Used to rent a American Trainer at ERAU in the 70's. The rollback canopy came close.

The only model in that line that I'm familiar with is the AA-5 Cheetah. There's one that lives in my hangar, belongs to a friend who said, "Hey L.R., if I buy an airplane will you teach me to fly it?"

"Sure," said I, and there it is, tucked behind the Bonanza.

Anyway, on that model, there's a restriction on the canopy. The placard states that it can only be opened in flight to a mark on the rail, it's about a three or four inch opening. There's also a speed restriction on flight with the canopy partially open.

The holes in the hangar roof probably could not have been made by this type airplane, though. It's a low wing, and the wing is between the occupants and anything below, so anybody shooting down toward the ground would put holes in his / her own wing and gas tank. I haven't met anybody who is actually dumb enough to do that. Yet.