It’s a human achievement because humans from America decided it was worth the time, effort, money, and blood to do it.

quote:

“First Man”

In this day and age, I'm surprised it wasn't given a more "gender-neutral" title.

Indefensible. You can try all day long, but this is indefensible, and you KNOW why they left out the American flag, and we know, too.

I wouldn't see this thing for free. If I can manage it, I will never lay eyes on a single frame of this leftist propaganda.

The United Sates of America landed on the moon- not the fucking world, not illegal aliens. The USA, and we brought a flag with us when we sent.

You KNOW why they left out the flag.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Indefensible. You can try all day long, but this is indefensible, and you KNOW why they left out the American flag, and we know, too.

I wouldn't see this thing for free. If I can manage it, I will never lay eyes on a single frame of this leftist propaganda.

The United Sates of America landed on the moon- not the fucking world, not illegal aliens. The USA, and we brought a flag with us when we sent.

You KNOW why they left out the flag.

I deleted my post, as I know better than to get in a pissing match with you.

But for the record, the American flag is NOT omitted from the film. It is displayed and prominent in several scenes. It is even shown on the moon. It is the actual planting of the flag that was omitted. I know that probably makes very little difference to you, but I thought I should offer some clarity on the matter.

I’ll say what I already said. They went there just to plant that flag so omitting a scene showing the entire reason we were there is bullshit.

They aren't even denying it. They came right out and said they purposely omitted it because it was a global achievement and not just an American one.

That is really heartbreaking to hear about the omitted flag scene. The Apollo missions are very, very special to me and I was extremely excited to see a great new movie about my hero's.
Since this was a deliberate act to minimize what this meant to America cost them my family's patronage.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
I’ll say what I already said. They went there just to plant that flag so omitting a scene showing the entire reason we were there is bullshit.

That is completely inaccurate. The decision to plant a flag was made about 3 months before the mission.

You, like everyone else, are certainly entitled to your opinions on the film, and as to whether you choose to see it or not. But planting the flag itself was NEVER the primary goal of the mission.

quote:

Originally posted by sig229owner:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
I’ll say what I already said. They went there just to plant that flag so omitting a scene showing the entire reason we were there is bullshit.

That is completely inaccurate. The decision to plant a flag was made about 3 months before the mission.

You, like everyone else, are certainly entitled to your opinions on the film, and as to whether you choose to see it or not. But planting the flag itself was NEVER the primary goal of the mission.

No the primary goal of the mission was to beat the Russians, as Americans.

That was the goal and a flag was a forgone conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by sig229owner:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
I’ll say what I already said. They went there just to plant that flag so omitting a scene showing the entire reason we were there is bullshit.

That is completely inaccurate. The decision to plant a flag was made about 3 months before the mission.

You, like everyone else, are certainly entitled to your opinions on the film, and as to whether you choose to see it or not. But planting the flag itself was NEVER the primary goal of the mission.

No the primary goal of the mission was to beat the Russians, as Americans.

That was the goal and a flag was a forgone conclusion.

Exactly.

It was an achievement of the United States of America. Hollywood gets it wrong again. There was a lot more to it than here guys put this flag in your back pocket.

------------------------------------------------------
Where No Flag Has Gone Before: Political and Technical Aspects of Placing a Flag on the Moon

Abstract
The flag on the moon represents an important event in vexillological history. This paper examines the political and technical aspects of placing a flag on the moon, focusing on the first moon landing. During their historic extravehicular activity (EVA), the Apollo 11 crew planted the flag of the United States on the lunar surface. This flag-raising was strictly a symbolic activity, as the United Nations Treaty on Outer Space precluded any territorial claim. Nevertheless, there were domestic and international debates over the appropriateness of the event. Congress amended the agency's appropriations bill to prevent the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) from placing flags of other nations, or those of international associations, on the moon during missions funded solely by the United States. Like any activity in space exploration, the Apollo flag-raising also provided NASA engineers with an interesting technical challenge. They designed a flagpole with a horizontal bar allowing the flag to "fly" without the benefit of wind to overcome the effects of the moon's lack of an atmosphere. Other factors considered in the design were weight, heat resistance, and ease of assembly by astronauts whose space suits restricted their range of movement and ability to grasp items. As NASA plans a return to the moon and an expedition to Mars, we will likely see flags continue to go "where no flag has gone before."

Introduction
President John F. Kennedy, in his historic speech of September 1962, expressed his vision of space exploration for an audience assembled in the stadium Rice University. Earlier that year he had challenged the United States to go to the moon within the decade. The space race was well underway and Kennedy, in foreseeing the role his country was to play in space exploration, also alluded to a role for flags. "We mean to lead [the exploration of space], for the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond, and we have vowed that we shall not see it governed by a hostile flag of conquest, but by a banner of freedom and peace." (footnote 1) Thirty years later, as we prepare to return to the moon and continue on to Mars, it is time to reconsider the political and technical aspects of placing a flag on the lunar surface.

Political Aspects Domestic Considerations
The political aspects of the first lunar flag-raising were twofold -- both domestic and international. NASA relies upon Congress for its funding and therefore has always been very cognizant of the need for good public relations. Astronauts were considered national heroes, and the flag of the United States has been a common symbol used in all aspects of the manned space program. NASA's spacecraft and launch vehicles have always been decorated with flags. Edward H. White II became the first American astronaut to "walk in space" on 4 June 1965 (Fig. 1), and his space suit was one of the first to be adorned with a flag patch. (footnote 2) Following this tradition, flags have been used on the suits of astronauts from many countries. Use of flags in the space program created controversy, however, only when it became apparent that a flag would be planted on the moon.
Edward White II Fig. 1. - Edward H. White II displays the U.S. flag on his space suit during his historic spacewalk, or EVA (NASA JSC Photograph S65-30431).

International Considerations
Prior to the Apollo 11 moon landing, the United Nations (U.N.) adopted the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies of 27 January 1967 (commonly known as the Outer Space Treaty). Article II of the treaty clearly states that "outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of occupation, or by any other means." (footnote 3) The United States, signatory to the treaty, could not claim the moon. Therefore, raising a flag on the lunar surface would merely be a symbolic gesture -- an expression of triumph similar to the planting of a flag on Mount Everest or at the North and South Poles. The legal status of the moon clearly would not be affected by the presence of a U.S. flag on the surface, but NASA was aware of the international controversy that might occur as a result. (footnote 4)

In January of 1969, President Richard M. Nixon's inaugural address stressed the international flavor of the Apollo program. "As we explore the reaches of space, let us go to the new worlds together -- not as new worlds to be conquered, but as a new adventure to be shared." NASA officials noted the tone of the speech, and there was some discussion within the agency that a United Nations flag could be used for the flight. (footnote 5) This was one of the possibilities considered by the Committee on Symbolic Activities for the First Lunar Landing, which was appointed by Thomas O. Paine, NASA Acting Administrator, on February 25 of that year. The committee was instructed to select symbolic activities that would not jeopardize crew safety or interfere with mission objectives; that would "signalize the first lunar landing as an historic forward step of all mankind that has been accomplished by the United States" and that would not give the impression that the United States was "taking possession of the moon" in violation of the Outer Space Treaty. The committee considered several options including the possibilities of leaving a United States flag or an adaptation of the solar wind experiment in the form of a flag, leaving a set of miniature flags of all nations, and leaving a commemorative marker on the surface. (footnote 6)

The committee's report recommended using only the flag of the United States during the lunar extravehicular activity (EVA). In addition, the committee suggested that a plaque bearing an inscription ("Here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the moon July 1969, A.D. We came in peace for all mankind") be mounted on the lunar module to emphasize that the purpose of the mission was one of exploration and not conquest. The original plaque design featured a U.S. flag, but the graphic was changed to pictures of the eastern and western hemispheres of the Earth to symbolize the crew's point of origin. It was decided that, in addition to the large flag, 4 x 6 inch flags of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. territories, and flags for all member countries of the United Nations and several other nations, would be carried in the lunar module and returned for presentation to governors and heads of state after the flight. (footnote 7)

Technical Aspects
Design and Engineering Constraints
Work on the lunar flag assembly began about three months prior to the Apollo 11 mission. Robert Gilruth, Director of the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC) (footnote 8) and a member of the Committee on Symbolic Activities, asked Jack Kinzler, Chief of Technical Services Division at MSC, for ideas regarding the EVA. Kinzler suggested that a full-size U.S. flag could be deployed using a specially designed flagpole. He drew up a preliminary sketch (Fig. 2) and the idea was presented to the committee. Working with Deputy Division Chief Dave McCraw, he worked out the details of the lunar flag assembly over several days. The design was based on a number of engineering constraints. For example, to compensate for the lack of an atmosphere on the lunar surface, the flag assembly included a horizontal crossbar to give the illusion of a flag flying in the breeze. (footnote 9)

Two other major constraints were the weight of the assembly and the stowage space required. The team designed the entire assembly to be as lightweight as possible -- when completed it weighed only 9 pounds and 7 ounces. They reduced the size of the package by developing a two-part telescoping pole apparatus with a telescoping crossbar. It was also necessary to design a flagpole that could be easily assembled and deployed by astronauts wearing space suits. Space suits used for the lunar surface EVA were pressurized to approximately 3.7 pounds per square inch and, as a result, the amount of force that the astronauts could apply with their gloved hands was limited and their range of movement was restricted (Fig. 3).

A 3 x 5 ft. nylon flag, obtained through the government supply catalog, (footnote 10) was altered by sewing a hem along the top. The crossbar, hinged to the pole, went through this hem, and a loop sewn around the bottom of the flag secured it to the pole. An astronaut would unfurl the flag by extending the telescoping crossbar and by raising it first to a position just above 90 degrees. He then lowered it to a position perpendicular to the pole where a catch prevented the hinge from moving. The upper portion then slipped into the base portion of the flagpole, which had been driven into the ground using a lunar geological hammer. A red ring was painted around the base of the assembly 18 inches from the bottom to aid the astronauts in judging the distance that the pole had penetrated the surface. (footnote 11)

Finally, it was necessary to protect the flag during the descent portion of the lunar landing. To make the flag easily accessible during the EVA, it was mounted on the left-hand side of the ladder on the Lunar Module (LM) (fig. 4).

This also reduced the amount of equipment that had to carried inside the already crowded vehicle. It was estimated, however, that the LM ladder would be heated to 250 degrees Farenheit by the descent engines as they fired during the descent staging phase of the landing. The ladder would experience temperatures up to 2,000 degrees Farenheit during the 13 seconds of the touchdown phase. Tests run on the flag determined that it would withstand temperatures of only up to 300 degrees Farenheit . These conditions made it necessary to design a protective shroud for the flagassembly. The shroud design (Fig. 5) was the work of the Structures and Mechanics Division of the Manned Spacecraft Center. It consisted of a stainless steel outer case separated from an aluminum layer by Thermoflex insulation. Several layers of thermal blanketing material were placed between the shroud and the flag assembly, limiting the temperature experienced by the flag to 180 degrees Farenheit . (footnote 12)

Construction and Testing
All of the work on the flag assembly and on the flag shroud was performed in the workshops at the Manned Spacecraft Center. Alterations to the flag were done in the fabrics shop, the sheet metals shop constructed the flagpole, and another shop anodized the flagpole -- electrolytically coating the aluminum to give it a gold color and a stiff protective surface. Tubing used in the construction of the pole was about an inch in diameter with a wall approximately 1/32 of an inch thick. The telescoping feature of the pole was created by using different sizes of tubing that slid neatly into each other. A capped bottom allowed the upper portion of the pole to slide easily into the lower portion. The base of the lower section was designed with a hardened steel point to make it easier to drive into the lunar soil.

Cost of materials was relatively low -- the flag was purchased for $5.50 and the tubing cost approximately $75. The cost of the shroud has been estimated at several hundred dollars due to the materials involved. Construction of the prototypes was achieved in several days, and after a week the team had made a few backup assemblies, and some to be used for crew training purposes. Demonstration tests were performed where the flag assembly was folded, packed, unpacked, erected and deployed to assure that it would operate properly. Kinzler flew to Kennedy Space Center in Florida to participate in a mockup review of the lunar flag assembly on 25 June 1969. The astronauts were included in several of these tests as part of their EVA training so that they would be familiar with deployment procedures. (footnote 13)

Preflight Preparation
Packing of the flag assembly followed a written 12-step procedure which required up to 5 people to ensure that it was tightly packed. Wooden blocks and plastic ties were used by the team to keep the packed flag together as they progressed through the steps. These packing aids were removed when the flag was placed into the thermal package. After the flag was rolled into the thermal package a thermal rip strip made with Velcro was used to close the package. The strip had a pull-tab at the top to make it easier for the astronauts to open the package once they were on the lunar surface. This thermal package was then installed into the metal shroud following a 4-step procedure. A small block of Thermaflex insulation was placed around the bottom and top ends of the pole to protect the flag ends from hot brackets. The flag packing for the Apollo 11 flight was performed in Jack Kinzler's office and was approved by the Chief of Quality Assurance who was present during the procedure. Once the flag thermal package was properly stowed inside the shroud, it was taken to the launch site at KSC to be mounted on the ladder of the LM. (footnote 14)

Because the final decision to fly the flag and attach the plaque was made so close to the launch date, a Lear jet was chartered to fly Kinzler, George Low (Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program), Low's secretary, the flag assembly, and the commemorative plaque to KSC before the launch. The flag and plaque were installed on the LM of Apollo 11 at 4:00 in the morning as the spacecraft sat atop its Saturn V rocket ready for launch. Kinzler had written an 11-step procedure for mounting the assembly on the ladder and personally supervised the installation.

Proper installation was vital if the astronauts were to be able to deploy the flag on the lunar surface. An astronaut first released the shroud "pip" pin by squeezing it and then pulling it out, and then released the main flag assembly "pip" pin. A spring tension against the flag poles was released when the pins were pulled allowing easy removal of the shroud. The astronaut then pulled the Velcro strip off the insulation package and discarded the wrapping materials.

Deployment and Performance
The first U.S. flag on the moon was deployed by Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin during their historic EVA on 20 July 1969 (at 4 days, 14 hours and 9 minutes mission-elapsed time). The flag was seen worldwide on live television (Fig. 6). At their technical crew debriefing, Armstrong and Aldrin reported few problems with the deployment. They had trouble extending the horizontal telescoping rod and could not pull it all the way out. This gave the flag a bit of a "ripple effect," and later crews intentionally left the rod partially retracted. The Apollo 11 astronauts also noted that they could drive the lower portion of the pole only about 6 to 9 inches into the surface. It is uncertain if the flag remained standing or was blown over by the engine blast when the ascent module took off.

Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin Fig. 6. - Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin deploy the first U.S. flag on the moon. (NASA JSC Photograph S69-40308)

The only design change made as the result of performance on the lunar surface was in the catching mechanism of the horizontal crossbar's hinge. The Apollo 12 crew could not get the catch to latch properly and, as a result, the flag drooped slightly. Later models of the flag assembly had a double-action latch that would work even if the horizontal bar was not raised above a 90 degree angle. (footnote 15)

Reactions to the Flag Deployment
Even though the event took only 10 minutes of the 2 1/2 hour EVA, for many people around the world the flag-raising was one of the most memorable parts of the Apollo 11 lunar landing. There were no formal protests from other nations that the flag-raising constituted an illegal attempt to claim the moon. Buzz Aldrin, in an article written for Life magazine, stated that as he looked at the flag he sensed an "almost mystical unification of all people in the world at that moment." A few published articles expressed regret that NASA had chosen not to plant a U.N. flag, either in addition to or alongside that of the United States.

Prior to the mission, several members of Congress relayed letters from their constituents to NASA which recommended (or in some cases opposed) the use of specific flags. Flags mentioned in these letters included the U.S. flag, the U.N. flag, and the Christian flag. (footnote 16) The congressional debate heated up in the House of Representatives as the body considered NASA's appropriations bill for Fiscal Year 1970. On 10 June, NASA formally notified members of Congress that a decision had been made to raise the U.S. flag on the lunar surface. The House approved the appropriations bill on that same day after amending it to include a flag provision. This measure did not actually affect the Apollo 11 mission, but did make it clear to NASA where many members of Congress stood on the flag issue.

A House and Senate conference committee agreed on the final version of the bill on 4 November 1969 which included a provision that "the flag of the United States, and no other flag, shall be implanted or otherwise placed on the surface of the moon, or on the surface of any planet, by members of the crew of any spacecraft ... as part of any mission ... the funds for which are provided entirely by the Government of the United States." The amendment, in deference to the Outer Space Treaty, concluded with the statement "this act is intended as a symbolic gesture of national pride in achievement and is not to be construed as a declaration of national appropriation by claim of sovereignty." (footnote 17)

Although the amendment was passed and became law, technically NASA was not required to deploy a U.S. flag on each of the following Apollo missions. Spencer M. Beresford, NASA's General Counsel, noted in a report to the Associate Deputy Administrator that "the managers on the part of the House further clarified the intent of the provision during the conference by stipulating that this section should not be construed to mean that the American flag must necessarily be implanted or otherwise placed on the surface of the moon or the surface of any planet on each and every landing subsequent to an initial landing." Regardless of this interpretation, the Apollo flights could have been considered exempt since, as pointed out by a member of the House of Representatives, several international partners had contributed to portions of the Apollo Program. (footnote 18) This is also likely to be the case if and when NASA sends astronauts back to the moon or on to Mars.

The Future
President George Bush, speaking on the steps of the National Air and Space Museum on the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 moon landing, proposed that lunar/Mars exploration should be the nation's long-term objective in space exploration. "The Apollo astronauts left more than flags and footprints on the Moon. They also left some unfinished business. For, even 20 years ago, we recognized that America's ultimate goal was not simply to go there and go back -- but to go there and go on." (footnote 19)

Although Bush did not include the concept of international cooperation in his vision of the space exploration initiative, there are many who recognize that the political climate has changed since the days of Apollo. Space exploration and space projects have become internationalized and missions on the scale of a lunar base or a Mars mission will probably require international funding to make them feasible. It will be interesting to see which flags join that of the United States on the lunar surface and which will be the first flags on Mars. (fig. 7) One thing is clear -- as humans explore the solar system we will likely see flags continue to go "where no flag has gone before."

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-usflag.html

quote:

Originally posted by sig229owner:

That is completely inaccurate. The decision to plant a flag was made about 3 months before the mission.

The decision was finalized three month prior. It was always a plan, but because of the U.N. and other nations worried that the U.S. might claim the moon as their own, our planting the flag was very controversial at the time. Some things never change .

Plantning the flag was one of the most significant actions by Armstrong and Aldrin in their mission. Yet the film makers purposely delete that extremely crucial moment because of their anti-nationalism PC bullshit feelings, and they stated as much. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the film makers motives.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:

quote:

Originally posted by sig229owner:

That is completely inaccurate. The decision to plant a flag was made about 3 months before the mission.

The decision was finalized three month prior. It was always a plan, but because of the U.N. and other nations worried that the U.S. might claim the moon as their own, our planting the flag was very controversial at the time. Some things never change .

Plantning the flag was one of the most significant actions by Armstrong and Aldrin in their mission. Yet the film makers purposely delete that extremely crucial moment because of their anti-nationalism PC bullshit feelings, and they stated as much. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the film makers motives.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_p...ssions/apollo11.html

Mission Objective
The primary objective of Apollo 11 was to complete a national goal set by President John F. Kennedy on May 25, 1961: perform a crewed lunar landing and return to Earth.

Additional flight objectives included scientific exploration by the lunar module, or LM, crew; deployment of a television camera to transmit signals to Earth; and deployment of a solar wind composition experiment, seismic experiment package and a Laser Ranging Retroreflector. During the exploration, the two astronauts were to gather samples of lunar-surface materials for return to Earth. They also were to extensively photograph the lunar terrain, the deployed scientific equipment, the LM spacecraft, and each other, both with still and motion picture cameras. This was to be the last Apollo mission to fly a "free-return" trajectory, which would enable a return to Earth with no engine firing, providing a ready abort of the mission at any time prior to lunar orbit insertion.



This will be my last reply in this thread. I understand why everyone is upset about the planting of the flag being omitted. I too wish it was included in the film. But, that being said, the flag planting was NEVER the primary goal of the mission. It is not even listed under the mission objectives (from NASA website itself).

Again, I understand why so many people are worked up over this, and why there is the sentiment that this was done with malice.

Continue to have fun bashing the film... that you haven’t seen.

quote:

Originally posted by sig229owner:
Continue to have fun bashing the film... that you haven’t seen.

Will do! Thanks for your (unneeded) permission?

I saw the movie trailer commercials yesterday, the last couple frames of the commercial shows the flag in front of the lander. I didn't see any shoulder patch flags and the rocket did not have USA on it either.

I ain't going. To hell with 'em.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
No the primary goal of the mission was to beat the Russians, as Americans.

That was the goal and a flag was a forgone conclusion.

I’ve seen the film. They show the Russians doing the first space walk, and I think it was Aldrin, iirc, who got really pissed off about it. The America vs. Russia space race was on full display in the film and our boys were none too happy about being beat, or the Russians being ahead.

There is a lot of “judgement” on this film that is unjust. If you saw it, well I think many would have a different opinion. Damn good film. And they showed our boys, our space program, etc, excellently. They even interview people around the world about it, and I remmeber some French lady stating “I knew the Americans would do it.”

You guys are trying to defend something that even the writers and actors aren’t denying. I know one of you watched a lot of movies and the other even worked on the movie but I’ve seen a lot of movies and worked on a few myself and not once did the actors or directors or writers or producers or anyone else above the line ever sit with me and talk about their inspiration for the movie. And I’ve sat with all of the above.

If I ever see it I’ll see it for free on Amazon or Netflix. They are admitting to omitting the scene and trying to justify the reasons. They can fuck right off then.

quote:

The decision was finalized three month prior. It was always a plan, but because of the U.N. and other nations worried that the U.S. might claim the moon as their own, our planting the flag was very controversial at the time.

Really? Did the U.N. cough up funding for that space program?